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Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
I had asked Tim Static and DaRabidDuckie a few questions about an upcoming stick project and this thread ended up being full of great information. The stick I am looking to make will be -Hitbox style -Dual mod for xbox and ps3, and ~Possibly light up buttons.

cheers, and enjoy the info :)
 

DaRabidDuckie

Shimapan Destroyer
First and foremost, there are two Golden Rules to any dual mod:

1) All PCBs must be powered at all times.
2) All PCBs must be common ground.

So you'll need to work with a stick that's common ground, unless you're prepared to scrap the whole thing. NONE OF THE PDP MK9 STICKS ARE COMMON GROUND. If you want to use one, you'll have to take everything out. The top panel is a pain in the neck to do, so unless you feel like tearing the whole thing apart, you'll lose access to the home/guide button. Some boards (like the ChImp) correct this by having start+select= home/guide.

Anyway, when looking for parts, here are a few websites that are very useful:
http://www.focusattack.com/ -- A great shop that's come into prominence over the past two years, especially after Lizardlick went down the tubes.
http://godlikecontrols.com/ -- Toodles' personal site, where you can order parts directly from him. Super-fast shipping, and links to threads discussing the parts.

When dual modding, you almost always want to start with a 360 stick. Why? It's actually a little confusing. Basically, PS3 systems are easier to work with. They have little to no controller security, so it's easy to trick the system into thinking that a controller board is a PS3 controller. This is why stuff like the ChImp and the MC Cthulhu exist: they're essentially PS3 controllers that you can have code running on to allow things like multi-console support (like SNES!) and auto-detection. Microsoft has draconian controller security, so you can't do things like that with their pads. Only a few companies have been able to hack into the controller security (and those who have aren't sharing), which I'm told is a pain to do, so this is why most mods start with a 360 pad, because you need something that has a legit way of connecting to a 360. This is why a lot of 360 converters require you to have a 360 pad hooked up to it, whereas a lot of PS3 converters "just work". This is also why a lot of modders charge more for working with PS3 sticks, because it's just more work to add 360 to.

Short version: start with a 360 stick if possible.

Now, as for what PCBs to use, it depends on one thing: form, or function?

The traditional dual mod has two pcbs chained together through a switch. Some boards have become available that combine lots of functionality into one board, so it really depends on what you want and what you already have.

A few examples:

ChImp (PS3):
Pros:
-- Very easy to use. Can make solderless via screw terminals.
-- Small board makes for easy and clean mounting.
-- Screw terminals labeled with inputs.
-- Inverter options for connecting to a 360 pad that would normally require trigger inverting.
-- Combines a Cthulhu+Imp, so no need for both boards.
-- Autodetects between 360 and PS3.
Cons:
-- PS3 only. No multi-console version available.
-- Must be connected to 360 pad for dual mods.

MC Cthulhu (PS3):
Pros:
-- Screw terminals for solderless connections.
-- Good, reliable board with tons of community support behind it.
-- Has multi-console functionality, meaning you can run things like a PS2 or GC cable out of it. Works with about 14 different systems.
-- Best option for multi-console RJ45 support.
-- Combine with Imp V2 board for multidetecting between 360/PS3
Cons:
-- Needs an Imp board or a switch for use in dual modding.
-- Screw terminals aren't labeled, so you have to use the enclosed Welcome Sheet if you don't have it memorized.
-- No native 360 support. Must be connected to a 360 pad for dual mods.

Kitty Board (PS3):
Pros:
-- Easiest to install by far. No soldering. Period.
-- Supports same systems as MC Cthulhu (like SNES, NES, GC, PS1/2, etc etc)
-- Also autodetects.
Cons:
-- Expensive.
-- Not a good standalone option.
-- Only works off of a Hori VLX or a MadCatz TE.

MadCatz/Hori PCBs (PS3): (Note: the only reason I'm listing this is because I dual mod a lot of PS3 sticks to add 360)
Pros:
-- Reliable, plentiful.
Cons:
-- Not always common ground, meaning they can't be used in modding.
-- Not ideal for dual modding. Can be used, but a ChImp/MCC offers better options for PS3.
-- No autodetect options available.

Paewang (PS3/360):
Pros:
-- Combines PS3/360 into one board!
-- Inexpensive, considering what you're getting.
-- Great option for a blank case.
Cons:
-- No solderless options.
-- No multiconsole options (meaning you can't add stuff like NES, SNES, DC, Sat, etc).
-- Overkill for dual mods, since you're already using one of the PCBs it has.

PS360+ (PS3/360):
Pros:
-- Combines PS3/360 into one board!
-- Great option for blank case.
-- More features than the Paewang.
Cons:
-- More expensive than the Paewang.
-- No solderless options.
-- No multiconsole options (meaning you can't add stuff like NES, SNES, DC, Sat, etc).
-- Overkill for dual mods, since you're already using one of the PCBs it has.
-- PS360+ isn't out yet, and no word when it will be.
-- PS360 (the original) was glitchy.

Duckie's choice:
Basic dual mod: ChImp hooked up to a 360 stick.
Multi-Console mod: MC Cthulhu + Imp V2 + 360 stick/pad + RJ45
Blank Case build (function): MC Cthulhu + Imp V2 + 360 pad + RJ45
Blank Case build (form): Paewang.

LEDs... oh boy. This one will require a separate post.
 

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
Oh man! This would have taken me a lifetime to find out on my own. I appreciate the help so much. This part of the project is so foreign to me, but also really exciting.
 

DaRabidDuckie

Shimapan Destroyer
LEDs are something I still don't quite understand yet. I just know I've done a few LED mods, and I hate them, especially after losing vision in one eye. It requires a lot of surgical precision, drilling through buttons, and making the insides of your stick look like a noodle factory.

Starting off, unless you have a deep knowledge of electronics and can build your own controller board, you're going to need a pre-made controller board.

You have two choices, here:

Toodles' FG Widget LED controller:
Pros:
-- Easier to use than the Sparky
-- Lots of cool LED effects (my favorite is the ripple)
-- Easier to install than the Sparky
-- Best option if you want just one color.
Cons:
-- No solderless option available.
-- Not programmable. What's on the board is what you get.
-- Doesn't support RGB yet (Toodles is working on this).

Sparky PWM SMD:
Pros:
-- Solderless options available.
-- Programmable effects/button combinations. As an example, this means you can wire MP and MK to be blue normally, but pressing them together gives you orange.
-- Supports RGB LEDS.
Cons:
-- More expensive. Literally twice the cost of the FGW.
-- Harder to install than FGW, even with solderless options.
-- Wiring multi-color LEDS is much harder.
-- Programming LED effects is not easy.

Duckie's picks:
Just works: Toodles FGW
I see stars: Sparky PWM

Now, as for the LEDS themselves. There are two choices, but you really have one option: you can work with raw LEDs, which you'll need if you want some of the funkier colors like pink or purple, or you can use LED inserts.

For the love of God, use inserts. LEDs are small, the leads break easily, and you have to be a soldering expert to get these things to work. LED inserts have wonderful soldering points for a more solid connection, and sometimes come pre-wired or have solderless connections.

There are two problems with inserts, though:

1) If you're putting them in a 24mm button, you have to cut the insert down to fit using a dremel.
2) They're expensive. An LED is around $0.30. You can buy 50 of them for $15 and have plenty of room for error. Inserts? They're $3-6 per button.

You still want inserts, though.

And speaking of buttons, you have to have clear ones. The button tops can be solid (or have artwork in them), but the rims at least have to be clear. This is another reason why LED mods are expensive... You need a $4 insert for a $4 button, and you need six to eight of these. That's at least $24 right there. Then you need a controller board, which is $15-33. Then you have to wire them, which takes even experienced modders three to four hours.

Yeah, I hate LED mods.
 

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
LEDs are something I still don't quite understand yet. I just know I've done a few LED mods, and I hate them, especially after losing vision in one eye. It requires a lot of surgical precision, drilling through buttons, and making the insides of your stick look like a noodle factory.

Yeah, I hate LED mods.
I thought this might be the case. I am by no means expert at any of this. I think I will start one step at a time and make sure I get it dual compatible, and looking awesome. Once that works, I'll see if I want to put lights in it, or maybe save that for a future project. I figure that one success at a time is better than a colossal failure.
 
Yo, you got a bunch of info already but figured I'd show what I built using a Paewang PCB, 24mm sanwa buttons from focusattack, and the Paewang wire harness from etoki.

http://studio23.us/joe/hb3.jpg

I have never soldered anything before, watched my friend solder my wood prototype and went to radio shack and got a 14 dollar iron and nailed it first try, its not hard.

Also, figured I would get your attention here, a local player says your in MN. We have a decent little scene here (8 man tournaments at GnG in roseville), could def use you and I am looking to get some pre EVO local casuals going soon here as well. Would you be ok with PM'ing me your name so I can add you to the MNMK group on FB?
 

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
Yo, you got a bunch of info already but figured I'd show what I built using a Paewang PCB, 24mm sanwa buttons from focusattack, and the Paewang wire harness from etoki.

http://studio23.us/joe/hb3.jpg

I have never soldered anything before, watched my friend solder my wood prototype and went to radio shack and got a 14 dollar iron and nailed it first try, its not hard.

Also, figured I would get your attention here, a local player says your in MN. We have a decent little scene here (8 man tournaments at GnG in roseville), could def use you and I am looking to get some pre EVO local casuals going soon here as well. Would you be ok with PM'ing me your name so I can add you to the MNMK group on FB?
I need to dual mod my hitbox before I can play you guys! I was told the tourneys are ps3 only, thats one of the main reason I am starting my new project. If I can get my current hitbox dual modded then yes. I am actually just finishing grad classes this week but am ready to go in the upcoming weeks for offline matches for sure. I'm excited for it and ready to go, assuming I have a controller that works, I have 3,000 wins on xbl with my homemade hitbox so i'm a bit particular... But again that is the whole point of why I'm learning more on here, I hope to get in with you guys as soon as I can.
 
Paewang (PS3/360):
Pros:
-- Combines PS3/360 into one board!
-- Inexpensive, considering what you're getting.
-- Great option for a blank case.
Cons:
-- No solderless options.
-- No multiconsole options.
-- Overkill for dual mods, since you're already using one of the PCBs it has.
what do you mean by no multiconsole options?
 

nwo

Noob
I always figured that if you wanted to "dual mod" you just threw in a cthulhu multi console pcb. When you read closely, "multi console" doesn't include ps3 AND 360 together. Now I understand why they charge so much to do a dual mod.
 
yeah but if you get a paewang revolution, from what focus attack is claiming. Is that to daul mod all you need is a paewang, and you can throw away the original PCB. You don't need another pcb to daul mod it with. After the stick is done you can either you can hold down buttons, or hook it up to a pc to change it from ps3/360.
10:15
 

DaRabidDuckie

Shimapan Destroyer
what do you mean by no multiconsole options?
These days a dual mod typically means PS3 and 360 together.

Multiconsole goes beyond that. Stuff like adding NES, SNES, PS1, PS2, Gamecube, Saturn, Dreamcast, and others.

Now I understand why they charge so much to do a dual mod.
Actually, I believe we 0don't charge enough. ^^; I'm having to get a second job because tournament modding isn't keeping my bills paid. >.>

Is that to daul mod all you need is a paewang, and you can throw away the original PCB.
*shudders at the words "throw away the original PCB"*
Never ever ever throw away a PCB, especially a 360 one. Someone out there can use it. Sell it!

I stand by my stance that a Paewang or PS360 is overkill for dual modding. Every time a customer provides one for a dual mod, I always end up trading them for whatever board I'd use for the mod, then use the Paewang or PS360 in a blank case build. You just get more functionality out of it, either in the form of autodetection or the ability to add waaaaaay more systems. Just today I used my stick to play a Wii game. Last weekend I needed it for PS2. It's just so nice having one stick to do all of those things.
 
These days a dual mod typically means PS3 and 360 together.

Multiconsole goes beyond that. Stuff like adding NES, SNES, PS1, PS2, Gamecube, Saturn, Dreamcast, and others.

Actually, I believe we 0don't charge enough. ^^; I'm having to get a second job because tournament modding isn't keeping my bills paid. >.>

*shudders at the words "throw away the original PCB"*
Never ever ever throw away a PCB, especially a 360 one. Someone out there can use it. Sell it!

I stand by my stance that a Paewang or PS360 is overkill for dual modding. Every time a customer provides one for a dual mod, I always end up trading them for whatever board I'd use for the mod, then use the Paewang or PS360 in a blank case build. You just get more functionality out of it, either in the form of autodetection or the ability to add waaaaaay more systems. Just today I used my stick to play a Wii game. Last weekend I needed it for PS2. It's just so nice having one stick to do all of those things.
So all you need to build your own stick from scratch that plays on both is a Paewang then, right? Becuase thats what I was going to get, and get rid of the wireless 360 pcb I have in my hitbox now. I modded A tekkan tag stick into a hitbox. The only original thing left is the case,pcb (wireless),and mic jack.
 

DaRabidDuckie

Shimapan Destroyer
So all you need to build your own stick from scratch that plays on both is a Paewang then, right? Becuase thats what I was going to get, and get rid of the wireless 360 pcb I have in my hitbox now. I modded A tekkan tag stick into a hitbox. The only original thing left is the case,pcb (wireless),and mic jack.
Yes, a Paewang should work nicely in that setup. I'd very much recommend that, especially since wireless controllers are starting to be banned at more and more tournaments.
 
Yes, a Paewang should work nicely in that setup. I'd very much recommend that, especially since wireless controllers are starting to be banned at more and more tournaments.
Thanks man. People also say wireless lag, but I dont see it. Maybe some do. But mine feels just as fast as a regular wired controller.
 

Johnny2d

Xbl: Johnny2Die
There is a lot of great information in this thread. Maybe it would be best for me to edit my first post down to just the nuts and bolts about what parts to use, and then have a mod cleanup all the other stuff about my project and also the other people that had gotten in touch with my me about our local scene.

Its just such great information, maybe it could get a sticky too so its easy to use, and useful for people coming into the thread.

I'm not sure who the mod is for this section so: Tim Static DaRabidDuckie
 
But why would you want it to ever be an issue? thats what i dont understand about that. Wired, always always always.
I was thinking of getting a paewang just to make the ultimate hitbox. I'm not a tournament player, I just like playing the game, and Skullgirls, and some SF4. I have no real reason at this moment to really worry about dual mod. But I do hate lag. So I did my best to invest in the right tv.
 

DaRabidDuckie

Shimapan Destroyer
Thanks man. People also say wireless lag, but I dont see it. Maybe some do. But mine feels just as fast as a regular wired controller.
There are a lot of tournaments that ban wireless controllers though. I don't blame them, as I've had matches interrupted by other people's controllers. I think the 360 gets a bye though because you can remove the batteries easily. Anywho, it does introduce a weeeee bit of lag randomly (from interference with other devices like phones, electronics, etc) so it's not worth the risk.

I was thinking of getting a paewang just to make the ultimate hitbox. I'm not a tournament player, I just like playing the game, and Skullgirls, and some SF4. I have no real reason at this moment to really worry about dual mod. But I do hate lag. So I did my best to invest in the right tv.
If you're making a hitbox, make sure to use an SOCD cleaner board (you can get them from Toodles). They make it so you can't press B+F at the same time and have both motions come out. With the board, B+F=N, then D+U=U (or N if you want). Some tournaments ban them without those boards.