The Genuinely Unwinnable Matchups.

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

It seems like every tournament that goes by, the tier lists are becoming less and less reliable in their ability to tell you who's supposed to come out on top of who. MK9's being proven more and more to be balanced nearly centeredly around player's prowess, with a cast capable of victory no matter who they encounter...with a few choice exceptions.

Which begs the question: All skill, power, and brilliance aside...what matchups in this game do you all believe are truly, not-even-fuck-with-ably, unwinnable at the highest possible level?

My answer's always the same: Sub cannot beat Kenshi.

Thoughts?

 

[1man3letters]

there are no 10-0 MUs in this game so no match is unwinnable, some tougher than others sure but none unwinnable

 

[Flagg]

It was an interesting tournie, because while Detroit is a counter picking player, Jr and REO stuck to their mains. In the end it worked out for CD Jr.

It pleases me because of character loyalty and people forgetting this counter picking nonsense and focussing on dealing with bad match ups.

There are a few bad match ups though.

SZ and Kitana struggle like hell against Kenshi.

CSZ struggles like hell against Kitana and a purely zoning Mileena.

Cage struggles like hell against Kabal.

I think Kano struggles really badly against Skarlet and Jade.

I don't believe these matches are impossible, but extremely difficult to overcome, because the tough character seemingly has a counter to anything the struggling character can do.

 

[zee]

Try CSZ vs zoning Kabal... oh joy

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

It was an interesting tournie, because while Detroit is a counter picking player, Jr and REO stuck to their mains. In the end it worked out for CD Jr.

It pleases me because of character loyalty and people forgetting this counter picking nonsense and focussing on dealing with bad match ups.

There are a few bad match ups though.

SZ and Kitana struggle like hell against Kenshi.

CSZ struggles like hell against Kitana and a purely zoning Mileena.

Cage struggles like hell against Kabal.

I think Kano struggles really badly against Skarlet and Jade.

I don't believe these matches are impossible, but extremely difficult to overcome, because the tough character seemingly has a counter to anything the struggling character can do.

there are no 10-0 MUs in this game so no match is unwinnable, some tougher than others sure but none unwinnable

You guys are both right, to an extent. No one's unbeatable on paper, but in tournament/2 outta 3/3 outta 5 settings, I'm of the impression that there are some fights ala the ones listed here (gotta throw in Jade V Kenshi and Noob V Raiden/Kabal as well) that whoever's playing the disadvantaged character should really have a backup plan for.

 

[HGTV DrFlash44]

There are no unwinnable matchups in this game but the one's that are close in my opinion are

Kabal vs. Kenshi
Johnny Cage vs. Sheeva
Kenshi vs. Sub Zero
Raiden vs. Noob
Chuck Norris vs. Whole Cast -This one is unwinnable

 

[Flagg]

I feel bad for Jade. I find it crazy she cant glow through that Kenshi shit. I honestly believe she was intended to play similar to Skarlet. High execution, but big damage and meter building. Jade is still a cool character though.

Boxy, perhaps the back up plan should be to keep going with your main.

For example, lets assume you're a CSZ player and you're getting blown up by a Kabal or Mileena zoner. Even though you are 100% comfortable with your character. So you think "okay, im getting a pocket Jax" ..... and then you still get blown up.

The point im making is I believe people will do better with their best main, even in their tough match ups, rather than using a pocket character they only know a few BNB's with.

DrFlash44, Chuck Norris is a bitch now. He whined about the content of The Expendables 2 and now that film might be a PG. I mean ffs...

 

[16 Bit]

Kitana vs Sub-Zero might be among the worst and it's possible. Tom could probably defeat most Kitana players.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Boxy, perhaps the back up plan should be to keep going with your main.

That's the problem with Kenshi. I'm a Sub-Zero mainer . Lol.

Kitana vs Sub-Zero might be among the worst and it's possible. Tom could probably defeat most Kitana players.

My definition of this fight comes from watching Tom VS CD and the various Kits of the world: Fight To Be Lame. IF Sub manages to get the lifelead, his job then becomes to stay the fuck away from her at all costs unless she makes a blatant error, and wait out that clock like he's waiting for a steak at Outback. Her offense is beyond superior compared to his, with or without meter, and his bar does him no good as far as offense seeing as the EX Kamehameha gets stuffed by iAF and one blocked Slide = 40%+ combos, but if he does manage to get ahead, she HAS to respect his defensive options unless she wants to end up frozen.

 

[Flagg]

OneBoxyRobot, if it's any consolation, Kitana...anyone with a air fireball, but her in particular is super hard for a CSZ mainer like me. I'm deterimined to find away round that fan spam though. If you can land one slide on her, then you get in and have half a chance as Kitanas wake up options are terrible.

People still say SZ and CSZ is 6:4 SZ, but i think its even.

It's a shame you're on PNS and we can't play. We could have a good chat about this as well.

 

[1man3letters]

You guys are both right, to an extent. No one's unbeatable on paper, but in tournament/2 outta 3/3 outta 5 settings, I'm of the impression that there are some fights ala the ones listed here (gotta throw in Jade V Kenshi and Noob V Raiden/Kabal as well) that whoever's playing the disadvantaged character should really have a backup plan for.

of course going into a tournment without a plan/backup plan is the folly of the unwise.
when in a tournment situation its best to try give yourself the best chance of taking that 2 outta 3,3 outta 5 etc which i think got out of hand in some of the US tournies lately with the crazy amount of counter picking going on.
if u can play 5 chars to the level of your main thats great but i think it comes down to personal preference, like i will never play baraka vs liu kang in a tournment again as i hate the MU but i have no problem using raka against the likes of kenshi and lao which are harder MUs for him,when things go tits up with raka i have mileena as my back up and even a secret backup to her that only a handful of people know i play, i doubt ill ever break it out in a tourny though, too much love for the tarkatan bloodline

 

[CanadianBaconX]

Chuck Norris vs. Whole Cast -This one is unwinnable

Oh please... Chuck Norris vs. Liu Kang is atleast 8 - 2 Liu

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

OneBoxyRobot, if it's any consolation, Kitana...anyone with a air fireball, but her in particular is super hard for a CSZ mainer like me. I'm deterimined to find away round that fan spam though. If you can land one slide on her, then you get in and have half a chance as Kitanas wake up options are terrible.

People still say SZ and CSZ is 6:4 SZ, but i think its even.

It depends entirely on who's better at controlling their space and using their opponent's tools against them.
If the Sub can mindfuck the CSZ's Divekicks and get him to dance into Clones, he'll come out on top. But a good CSZ knows how limited his human counterpart is, and he can make him dance to his discretion. I still think it's 6-4, but a very liberal 6-4 just because of how slow some of CSZ's tools are.

Kit's and Kabal's are the worst just because of the size of their hurtboxes. Liu's, Mil's, Skarlet's, nowhere near as bad to get around, but the two of them are just doo-doo.

 

[TakeAChance]

Jade Kenshi. Topic Over.

 

[greeneless]

Jade vs. Kenshi is like 2-8.
Sheeva vs. Mileena is like 1-9.

Kitana, Kabal, and Sub Zero vs CSZ are really bad but probably all 7-3.

Edit: Oh, I forgot Cage vs. Scorpion 8-2

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

of course going into a tournment without a plan/backup plan is the folly of the unwise.
when in a tournment situation its best to try give yourself the best chance of taking that 2 outta 3,3 outta 5 etc which i think got out of hand in some of the US tournies lately with the crazy amount of counter picking going on.
if u can play 5 chars to the level of your main thats great but i think it comes down to personal preference, like i will never play baraka vs liu kang in a tournment again as i hate the MU but i have no problem using raka against the likes of kenshi and lao which are harder MUs for him,when things go tits up with raka i have mileena as my back up and even a secret backup to her that only a handful of people know i play, i doubt ill ever break it out in a tourny though, too much love for the tarkatan bloodline

Absolutely. Some people say Sub V Raiden is terrible for Subby, I know people who'd yell at me fiercely for fighting him at a show when I play Rax and Blax who'd arguably be the better choice, but there's no one out of my 4 I feel more comfortable fighting him with.

I don't call it counter-picking, I like to think of it as keeping my options open . Lol.

 

[Flagg]

It depends entirely on who's better at controlling their space and using their opponent's tools against them.
If the Sub can mindfuck the CSZ's Divekicks and get him to dance into Clones, he'll come out on top. But a good CSZ knows how limited his human counterpart is, and he can make him dance to his discretion. I still think it's 6-4, but a very liberal 6-4 just because of how slow some of CSZ's tools are.

Kit's and Kabal's are the worst just because of the size of their hurtboxes. Liu's, Mil's, Skarlet's, nowhere near as bad to get around, but the two of them are just doo-doo.

Yeah, I would say the advantages CSZ in the SZ match up has is much bigger damage output, relatively safe trades. You can divekick on reaction a ice blast, its when you got a SZ not throwing that stuff out, just sort of "moving" with no indication of what he will do and it's all to easy to dive into clone. CSZ is much better up close though and if you're slick enough, you can ice parry in the middle of some of SZ strings.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Yeah, I would say the advantages CSZ in the SZ match up has is much bigger damage output, relatively safe trades. You can divekick on reaction a ice blast, its when you got a SZ not throwing that stuff out, just sort of "moving" with no indication of what he will do and it's all to easy to dive into clone. CSZ is much better up close though.

Precisely. Neeeeeeeever throw naked shots at Cyber Sub, he'll make you wish you were wearing clothes.

Still wish I could've kept the Parry . R.I.P. Human Parry.

 

[Flagg]

CSZ is such an interesting character because of his specials. You have to pick when to use them. If you guess right, CSZ is in which you don't want. I've been trying to play around with a CSZ bomb pressure game, going in with a string into close bomb, then a string into medium bomb, trying to unsettle the opponent, or thrown one bomb, teleport, another bomb and so forth.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

CSZ is such an interesting character because of his specials. You have to pick when to use them. If you guess right, CSZ is in which you don't want. I've been trying to play around with a CSZ bomb pressure game, going in with a string into close bomb, then a string into medium bomb, trying to unsettle the opponent, or thrown one bomb, teleport, another bomb and so forth.

I played J360's Cyber Sub once. I was scarred for life.
The best thing about his Bombs isn't the pop, it's what people will do to get away from them.

 

[HGTV DrFlash44]

Oh please... Chuck Norris vs. Liu Kang is atleast 8 - 2 Liu

Well Rain might be 5 : 5 because it's just a roundhouse battle

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Yeah, I would say the advantages CSZ in the SZ match up has is much bigger damage output, relatively safe trades. You can divekick on reaction a ice blast, its when you got a SZ not throwing that stuff out, just sort of "moving" with no indication of what he will do and it's all to easy to dive into clone. CSZ is much better up close though and if you're slick enough, you can ice parry in the middle of some of SZ strings.

That robotic bastard!!! Stealing SZ's moves!!! And an extremely useful one at that!

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Sub-Zero vs Kenshi is pretty much as close to unwinnable as you are going to get.

it's like 3-7 Tom's Sub vs Kenshi
and like
1-9 for the rest of us Sub players. lol

Ice ball = useless b/c of reflect
Clone = almost useless b/c Kenshi isn't gonna be coming at you. lol
Ice Puddle = useless. LOL
Slide = your only chance... and most of the time you're gonna be 3/4ths screen or full screen away. In which case it's easy for him to react to, or you aren't going to make it to him with it.

 

[Mikemetroid]

I know I'm going to get shit from this but personally I can't stand the Cage v Kenshi matchup. I am more comfortable fighting Kabal than I am that blind bastard.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Liu Kang vs Quan Chi - 7-3 (forget it)
Sonya vs Quan Chi - 7-3 (forget it)
Kabal vs Cage - REO states it's a 6-4, but I dunno, always came off as more of a 7-3 imo.
Cage vs Jax - 7-3 isn't it? lol
Jax vs Kabal - 7-3? lol
Kenshi vs Sub/Kitana - blown up


Anyways. You get the idea. When all else fails learn Cage, Sonya, Kenshi and Jax!