The changes he needs.

[Rokinlobster]

Since the PC version is out, and moding is possible on an easier scale, as well as rumors of a new patch I thought I would make a thread specific to suggested changes to Cyrax.

One thing we need to get straight right off of the bat is his resets.
His resets work based off of the advantage of a second net in a combo, interacting with his unblockable, launching bomb.

This means that the reset has to do with fundamental parts of the characters mechanics. To remove it would mean to remove either the ability to do a second net In a combo, eliminating his ability for a standing reset, or eliminate the ability to throw bombs during a combo, which would seriously inhibit his combo ability.

Lets look at a Cyrax BNB if these changes take place.
21~net, 21~exbomb, njp, b2, 121~anti air. I don't know how much this does since all I did was add 21~exbomb to his meterless bnb, but it is probably about 38 percent. Cyraxs Damage output is what makes him so good. With out that he has a great d4, command grab, 6frame d1, and safe specials. Still pretty good, but not top 10 anymore.


SO instead of inhibiting his damage, lets look at those other things I said were good about him.

D4: Plus 16 on hit. 1 frame slower startup than regular d4s. Above average range.

Command grab: 12 percent damage. Allows free jump in vortex.

D1: six frames, not better than others but it still has a nice hitbox and range.

Safe specials (ragdoll and saw): saw Hits mid, and has about a quarter screen range. Can be punished by a jump in but that takes some balls. Ragdoll has nice range and offers the opportunity to select which side your opponent will land on. Allows for a combo if Cyraxs back is in the corner making it one of his most valuable wake up attacks.

Ok, Now here are my proposed changes. Cyrax keeps his resets but his other tools will be limited.

D4: only plus 9 on hit. Will allow for a d1/ d3 that must be respected, but he wont get a free standing 1 or command grab.

Command grab: don't allow command grab to be chained with a jump in punch. This is a massive nerf.

D1: is fine.

Specials: saw is fine, but make ragdoll -5 on block, but let the ex version be+5 on block.Now noobe tech (d1/d3~ragdoll/saw) will be much easier to escape, and Cyrax will have to respect opponents options after block pressure ending in ragdoll.

Post your thoughts, and explain realistically their implications on the meta game and match up specifics.

 

[NariTuba]

Im gonna "correct" some of the statements you made in your post, for the purpose of discussion.

the reset has to do with fundamental parts of the characters mechanics. To remove it would mean to remove either the ability to do a second net In a combo, eliminating his ability for a standing reset, or eliminate the ability to throw bombs during a combo, which would seriously inhibit his combo ability.

Lets look at a Cyrax BNB if these changes take place.
21~net, 21~exbomb, njp, b2, 121~anti air. I don't know how much this does since all I did was add 21~exbomb to his meterless bnb, but it is probably about 38 percent. Cyraxs Damage output is what makes him so good.

First of all, you wouldnt need to make BOTH changes, one would suffice. Taking away bombs during combos would be straight up silly... taking away the second net would pretty much mean nothing. Sure, it leads to some nice setups in the corner but its not a fundamental part of his gameplay like JC nutpunch or Kabal knee standing resets are. If you take away the second net he would have 60% damage bnbs, which would still make him the most damaging in the game. Other interesting possibilities open up such as hit confirming into Exbomb instead of net in order to leave the opp in a hanging net at the end of the combo for a mixup.

SO instead of inhibiting his damage, lets look at those other things I said were good about him.

The problem with this is that as he is, Cyrax is an already tedious character to play that requires extreme patience to win at the highest level. You basically need to chase other top tiers around while taking damage betting it all on that ONE chance to connect the big damage. If you take away his other tools, you would only make him more tedious (as in less fun). [/quote]

Command grab: don't allow command grab to be chained with a jump in punch. This is a massive nerf.

This is not a massive nerf at all, its a 1 to 2% damage nerf. The command grab is powerful because you can loop it, if you take away the free jump you would still be able to dash in for the same mixup. A massive nerf would be to eliminate the advantage from the command grab altogether.


IMHO, the best fix for Cyrax (if one is needed at all) would be to take away his resets and buff either his midrange or upclose game to compensate.

 

[Rokinlobster]

Im gonna "correct" some of the statements you made in your post, for the purpose of discussion.



First of all, you wouldnt need to make BOTH changes, one would suffice. Taking away bombs during combos would be straight up silly... taking away the second net would pretty much mean nothing. Sure, it leads to some nice setups in the corner but its not a fundamental part of his gameplay like JC nutpunch or Kabal knee standing resets are. If you take away the second net he would have 60% damage bnbs, which would still make him the most damaging in the game. Other interesting possibilities open up such as hit confirming into Exbomb instead of net in order to leave the opp in a hanging net at the end of the combo for a mixup.




The problem with this is that as he is, Cyrax is an already tedious character to play that requires extreme patience to win at the highest level. You basically need to chase other top tiers around while taking damage betting it all on that ONE chance to connect the big damage. If you take away his other tools, you would only make him more tedious (as in less fun).

I don't mean reduce the advantage off of command grab so you don't get a free jump. What I am talking about is making it so you can't command grab off of a jump in, which completely eliminates his command grab vortex. As far as I know dashing up to command grab again can be interrupted, but if needed the command grab could have seriously reduced advantage.

Like with b2, if you hit the jump in too high, it wont combo. With the command grab make it so it wiffs, or doesnt come out at all after a jump in. Also increasing the tech window by 2 frames might be a good idea.


So you say that the best thing for him would be to remove his resets, and improve his mid or close range game. Well ill throw some ideas to that line of thought.
F2, make it have faster startup, by three frames, but reduce the block advantage to 9 frames.
B2: make it +6 on block.
33:make it hit confirmable, but that might be too good.

Id also like to see a major buff to b3, and u4, although I don't know what. I know u4 has a simmilar knockdown to 212 in the corner, but you cant get the otgs after it, possibly make u4 in the corner grant some otgs.

Also some more armor on ex anti air would be amazing, and since it doesnt lead to a combo at all it will be great for Cyrax to get out of pressure, with out being stupidly op like having armor in EX bomb or net.

 

[Groove Heaven]

Also some more armor on ex anti air would be amazing, and since it doesnt lead to a combo at all it will be great for Cyrax to get out of pressure, with out being stupidly op like having armor in EX bomb or net.

I can get behind this. His wakeups are weak, he would need something good if he got his dirt taken away.

 

[Rokinlobster]

Also he will still have the breaker trap which will probably be every ones bnb

 

[NariTuba]

As far as I know dashing up to command grab again can be interrupted

No, it cannot. It can be teched (same as the jip, cg) but you have to guess. It requires less frames to dash in with cg than it does to get a free jump. It cannot be crouched either.

With the command grab make it so it wiffs, or doesnt come out at all after a jump in. Also increasing the tech window by 2 frames might be a good idea.

If cg doesnt come out after a jump in then you are nerfing his jump in 50/50 in general, not just the cg loop. Whats the point of increasing the tech window by 2 frames?

So you say that the best thing for him would be to remove his resets, and improve his mid or close range game. Well ill throw some ideas to that line of thought.
F2, make it have faster startup, by three frames, but reduce the block advantage to 9 frames.
B2: make it +6 on block.
33:make it hit confirmable, but that might be too good

I dont know if it would be the best thing, its certainly something that would make him more fun for me . F2 would need to be much faster than that, something around 17 frame startup. It would be BEAST, but since you cant hit confirm it I think it would be ok. That in itself would be the only buff needed, it would completely change the character. The bomb setups would be ridiculous, it would probably be a better buff than making 3,3 hit confirmable.

The problem with 3,3 is its hitbox is too small. The pushback from a kitana d1 at point blank is enough to push you out of range to counterpoke with it. Another problem is that the second 3 hits high, so even if you hit them with the first 3, you still whiff the second one and get punished if you hit them crouching.

 

[Rokinlobster]

The idea for the command grab was to eliminate his jump in 50-50, hence why it was such a large nerf.

Here is another idea I have. No bombs in a combo after a net. This will remove both the breaker trap and resets.

Make f2 19 frames and plus 9 on block.

Increase Push Back on 22, and increase advantage on hit by 7 frames.

Increase push back on 22f1

Make 2 connect on all neutral crouching and crouch blocking hit boxes.

Reduce the duration that net immobilizes the opponent enough so you can't teleport and get a jump in punch.

Reduce start up frames of bombs by 7 frames.

Add full armor to EX Anti Air.

Remove small amount of meter loss for bombs done at maximum speed.


With the increased push back on 22 and 22f1, as well as a faster f2 bomb traps will be come more secure.