Superman Update July 2 2013

[Kidsnipa]

So the patch is here, hows everyone feel on superman's changes? I messed around in training and with a friend, according to the in-game frame data breath is still +1 BUT they added a noticeable push-back and allowed characters to have an easier time hitting superman out of f23 breath loops. I do actually feel as well that it is a frame slower after you do it for a while you notice you can't input it as fast.

However, I feel this could actually be more helpful and in the future after doing more experimenting have more set ups and frame traps, such as my friend would mash d1 to stop it (the usual counter) but if i delayed it enough I can punish the whiffed d1 with f23 (before the pushback added, if you waited you would get hit by the d1, it only reaches and beats f2 because you're going forward in the new patch)
I'll do more work and hopefully post some videos when I have time, busy with with EVO prepping and work.

So in theory, if they don't hit a button you can still continue the f23 breath pressure, if you read theyre going to push a button you can delay and whiff punish, or go for any other mixup afterward.

As for the damage nerf on super, I don't mind with trait it still does 40% from 44% and being 34% instead of 38% means I'll have to hit them with 1 or 2 extra lasers but I would take that over a damage scaling nerf any day and we still have all our 50s% 60s% and 70s% corner combos

 

[TH3DISTURBED1]

The breath nerf was sort of discussed in one of the Superman guide threads. They agreed with what you said: the nerf isn't so much a nerf as an indirect buff. It still makes the opponent guess but they are much more likely to press a button with it being neutral.

 

[Dan]

Can you post the source of thist discussion @TH3DISTURBED1?

 

[Rondell Allard]

So it's an indirect buff because it makes you think ? lol

 

[Kidsnipa]

Well when me and a friend were testing it, before f23 breath you were left pretty much in front of the person and if they hit d1 you would get hit (be it blocked or hit) but now with the pushback, if theyre mashing d1 it whiffs completely leaving superman to do another f23 to whiff punish. Also if they get greedy and try to punish with a higher frame move (my friend was trying to punish with nw b2) he would eat a follow up f23 I won't be able to play until tomorrow but I'm going to do more testing on it to confirm this but it's more of a bigger frame trap in my opinion because now the opponent can't just blindly throw out a d1 without fear of a whiff punish

 

[Turnbull]

Some chars could hit you out with d1 before if they had a 7 frame or faster d1 or any move that lowered their hitbox (Green Lanterns low string, I think catwoman's b3?), or any parries. I also found most scorpions would already try to sweep which could be easily punished with slight walk back, f2-3 again. I haven't tested anything yet, my guess is Aquaman can still probably hit you out with d1 with the added pushback. Anyway, I don't think anything has really changed, except now all characters have a way out (Ie. can't lame anyone out with f23~breaths all day). Can any new characters back dash out of it now? That's probably the most important thing, if any new characters can whiff punish YOU.

 

[TH3DISTURBED1]

Can you post the source of thist discussion @TH3DISTURBED1?

All of this below was originally posted by @Raynex in "The Last Son of Krypton" stickied guide.

If they don't throw out whiffs, then you read their defense and do more strings to restart the guessing game. The chip damage is NOT the focal point, its minor but its still there and still counts as +1 for you. You won't be stringing 3 reps of F23~breath on someones block all the time, but maybe if you read them correctly (overuse of down+back) you can get a few reps in to get them to the corner.

When they do nothing in the face of pressure is when you go for airdash mix-ups, throws, more blockstrings or anything else you think might work. Heat zap would be good here too, 6% of chip and +19 on block (and its hard to punish Superman even when crouched)

Once you get your opponent into the corner your standard mix-ups improve. F3 is a slow overhead but its +9 on block. If it hits you get 70+%, if they block it you can frame trap with F23~breath into another guessing game or you can throw while they're in blockstun. Because being in the corner negates pushback, if you make them block heat zap / F3 / B3 they'll still be point blank and reeling from 7+ frames of blockstun. Midscreen you normally can't do much but in the corner they have to deal with it as long as you connect with their block. How do you connect with slow moves? By conditioning your opponent to do what you just described Destin, not throwing out whiffs or buttons in general. You pressure them, they continue to block, you make a read while on the offensive then you do slower moves with heavy frame advantage to give you entirely new possibilities. THEN you can start faking the F3 / B3s and dashing in or [MB]ing them to blow up interruption mid-charge.

This is just one scenario. You can still use grab mix-ups at point blank and blow up throw break attempts, you can run the double overhead w/ dive for 70+%, you can walk back B1~[MB] breath for a far reaching, safe, low combo starter, etc.

Hitting their block with F23~breath over and over isn't always a bad thing, but thinking differently about it may lead to better results with the most predictable string in the game. People have different preferences; I'm simply trying to maximize the depth of F23 and make it more effective. Ultimately you should do what works for you. Sometimes I go nuts with F23~breath because I have a read on during my offense. Other times I face Nightwings / Batmans who always press buttons, so being passive and waiting works, because they swing first. Use your judgement, my posts are not end all be all, just advice!

I appreciate the criticism, that's how people improve. What about this do you find incorrect if I may ask?

Anything you would disagree with?

 

[Dandy J]

Yeah I'm not really sure if the frames for the breath changed (the in-game data still says +1), though it being 0 or 1 doesn't matter even more than it would have because of the other changes. There's definitely more of a delay before either player can move after its blocked. There is WAY more pushback. To cite a speccific example, GL could not block a f23 breath and then backdash out of another f23 breath with a single backdash, the 2nd hit of f23 would still make contact. Now he can backdash out of another one easily, even with his poor backdash. I'm pretty certain the entire cast can get out of a 2nd f23 by backdashing now. It's more of a return to a neutral game after a f23 is blocked outside of the corner. A lot of character won't have to feel like they are forced to risk a d1 to escape the pressure.

 

[Kidsnipa]

Dandy J is totally right that the cast has more options in general in escaping the pressure due to the added pushblock, but as I've been practicing more and more online (the local scene here is lacking so I do what I can) it does give superman more options too especially when you start to read an opponent

For example, I'll f23 breath, sit back and wait and see what they do such as pushing a button to punish me then next time I catch them with the f23 breath, I'll delay it then hit them with another and it hits clean because they pushed a button and it's spaced enough to where I'm not hit and I can punish the whiff. It really just comes down to reads, if they're beating out f23 breath with b3 or mb b3 counter it with an instant air dash or neutral jump to blow it up or back up and whiff punish it there's plenty of options it's really about trying to read your opponent and counter him with the appropriate follow up

Yes superman can't f23 breath all day on the cast (he can if someone is inexperienced) but we still have options around that. I'd like to go in depth with a video with some options once I find some time

 

[TH3DISTURBED1]

Dandy J is totally right that the cast has more options in general in escaping the pressure due to the added pushblock, but as I've been practicing more and more online (the local scene here is lacking so I do what I can) it does give superman more options too especially when you start to read an opponent

For example, I'll f23 breath, sit back and wait and see what they do such as pushing a button to punish me then next time I catch them with the f23 breath, I'll delay it then hit them with another and it hits clean because they pushed a button and it's spaced enough to where I'm not hit and I can punish the whiff. It really just comes down to reads, if they're beating out f23 breath with b3 or mb b3 counter it with an instant air dash or neutral jump to blow it up or back up and whiff punish it there's plenty of options it's really about trying to read your opponent and counter him with the appropriate follow up

Yes superman can't f23 breath all day on the cast (he can if someone is inexperienced) but we still have options around that. I'd like to go in depth with a video with some options once I find some time

The funny part is 70% of the cast had these IDENTICAL answers for it before the patch. This just makes it much more into a mind game (which I'm perfectly fine with doing).