General/Other Sub zero weaknesses

[jimmy999]

Ive been playing as sub for the past few days since i got the game, i have used sub in all mk's (along with noob, kitana and ocassional scorp)

Im finding this sub is really outmatched by zoners and SOME teleporters

So far ive had real trouble with

Reptile (keeps doing that speed thing, or just baits me with that ball thing)
Scorpion (only if player is a good scorp player though, he just baits me with fire, then when i jump i either get teleport punched or speared on landing)
Nightwolf (for some reason he keeps breaking my block when he tele's, dont know if im doing something wrong)
Liu kang (baiting me with fireballs, then combos the hell out of me when i get closer)

So basically anyone who has any range moves and tele

Can anyone give me any tips on how to beat these punks, i usually respond with noob and spam the hell out of them back but i want to main sub (not cyber sub )

oh and i also got raped by a sheeva spammer with teleport lmao how do you stop that?

 

[Kryplixx]

Well with Reptile - his fast elbow dash hits mid...so don't block it crouching.
Nightwolf doesn't have a tele? If your talking about hit Shoulder Charge... EX hits mid as well. So don't block it crouching. Watch out for reflects.
Just rush down Liu Kang... he has bad wakeup options.

The only real tough tele kharacter is Raiden. Hard to fight online. Make good use of your clone... stand in front of it.

Sheeva - you just have to jump punch here tele stomp to hit her out of the air. Very easy.

 

[Marcus]

Only weakness I see with Sub-zero are figthing teleports. Since you open yourself up without an ice clone. But teleporters are punished when you know how to read your opponent, if he pressures right after a teleport try blocking then catching him with an ice clone or a combo out of the teleport (like scorpion's).

 

[Dark_Rob]

Ive been playing as sub for the past few days since i got the game, i have used sub in all mk's (along with noob, kitana and ocassional scorp)

Im finding this sub is really outmatched by zoners and SOME teleporters

So far ive had real trouble with

Reptile (keeps doing that speed thing, or just baits me with that ball thing)
Scorpion (only if player is a good scorp player though, he just baits me with fire, then when i jump i either get teleport punched or speared on landing)
Nightwolf (for some reason he keeps breaking my block when he tele's, dont know if im doing something wrong)
Liu kang (baiting me with fireballs, then combos the hell out of me when i get closer)

So basically anyone who has any range moves and tele

Can anyone give me any tips on how to beat these punks, i usually respond with noob and spam the hell out of them back but i want to main sub (not cyber sub )

oh and i also got raped by a sheeva spammer with teleport lmao how do you stop that?

Subzero is not out matched by anybody in the game. He has no losing matchups. But hes not an easy character to play. The more I learn about him the more I find you have to be aggressive with Sub. You cant just sit there and throw freezeballs because as a projectile in and of itself, its not that good. Sub is all about setups and baits. You have to go at them to make them come at you. Your never going to get the other guy to jump into an ice clone by just putting it out there. You have to get in his face and pressure him with 2,2 mixups,throws,well placed slides(well placed means dont abuse it, its highly punishable) cross up jump punch starters into throws,(I dont see alot of people do this) and then when they finally feel they have a chance to counter attack....BOOM they run or jump into an ice clone.
Instead of worrying about Scorpions hellfire, get in his face and make him worry about your options. Fuck hellfire, Il eat hellfires all day long and not give a shit because when I get in your face your going to have to guess what to do. Dash block in and put Sub in they're face and any character in the cast is going to have to guess what comes next.

 

[jimmy999]

thanks for the replies i will try the ice clone from tele, i usually hit with an uppercut but will try that never thought of it!

im still having problems with getting stuck in a corner and just being baited to come closer, i cant seem to guess what their gonna do, guess this just comes down to experience!

 

[noobharvester]

when you do mix ups is it something like 2,2, slide or 2,2,2 or 2,2,throw or 2,2, then d3 and stuff?

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I agree with Rob, completely. You have to play him aggressively and read/bait your opponents. A good Sub-Zero is a very, very, challenging opponent. I generally lose to a skilled Sub-Zero, but I always enjoy the fights.

 

[Dark_Rob]

when you do mix ups is it something like 2,2, slide or 2,2,2 or 2,2,throw or 2,2, then d3 and stuff?

2,2,4,clone is your safest block string. Start with that, when your opponent is conditioned to think that is what you will always do then you can mix it up. You can do just 2,2 then pause for a quick second, often they will think you fucked up your combo and drop they're block to counter attack. Then you can beat them to the punch with 2,2,freeze. Observe how they block 2,2,4,clone. If they are always standing then you can mix in 2,2,4,slide for a knockdown allowing you to close in and cut the screen off even more. Off a JPS you can hit confirm 2,2 and link in a freeze if you hit them. If they block high end with 4,slide if they block low after the JPS end with 4,clone for the safeness. Also mix in throws after the JPS. Its almost guaranteed because they will be expecting you to continue with 2,2,4. Once they start catching on to throws and trying to tech them go back to JPS,2,2, to hit confirm into freeze's again. Mix all this up and your opponent wont know what the hell to do. The hardest part of any match with Subzero is just getting Sub up in they're face. But once you do, they have to guess what comes next.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

Sometimes ending the string after a single 2 is good because you can get a surprise throw in. 22 -> crossup b12 is a great way to keep up pressure because if they do an uppercut or d3 or whatever they basically have to block the crossup, and sometimes you'll punish the move they did anyway. f+4 is also great for mixups.

 

[Runthak]

Scorpion?

How do I counter the Hellfire-Spear spamming Scorpion?

 

[Dark_Rob]

How do I counter the Hellfire-Spear spamming Scorpion?

First off. Fuck hellfire. Its nothing more than an annoyance move meant to throw you off your game,get you to jump or otherwise do something foolish. Dont let it. Eat hellfires and get up in his face. If he spears, duck and it will go right over you. Scorpion is stuck in recovery for what seems like forever on a whiffed spear. Duck it and then jump at him with JP,2,2,freeze,JP,2,1,4,slide. Hit him with that once or twice and if hes got any brains whatsoever he wont be throwing out anymore random spears.
You gotta be aggresive with Sub. Put Sub up in his face and make him start guessing. See my post a few posts earlier in this thread detailing some of his mixup options as well as some good ones from other posters. Sub is a beast when he gets in your face. Mix him up and be on the lookout for a panic button teleport and punish the hell out of that to.
Sub is an offensive character with amazing defense. You have to get at them to make them come at you.

 

[Koompbala]

Snip

Whats your take on Noob? He's been my only problem I don't see that match being even whatsoever especially against a patient one.

 

[Runthak]

ok thx rob

 

[Death By Nines]

Subzero is not out matched by anybody in the game. He has no losing matchups.

Seeing as this is my first post on this site, I hope you'll allow me to respectfully disagree with you Rob. I think Sub-zero is outmatched by Noob. Here's why:

- First of, Shadow Charge. This single projectile takes away a lot of options Sub has from mid to full screen. It is a move that can punish ice clones if anticipated, it cuts off the option of slide to close the gap, and even works as an anti-air in specific situations. Because of this move, Sub cannot even hope for a random trade off with an Ice ball, as the knockdown provided by Shadow Charge reduces the amount of time Sub has to wake up and get a full combo... meaning at best he gets a naked X-Ray if he has it, or a naked slide.

- It is extremely difficult for a character without teleport to maintain consistent pressure on a good Noob player, and Sub is no different. Sub's crossup 2,2 mixups are easily nullified by an anticipatory Shadow Up-Knee. The hitbox on that move stops even some teleports (Scorpion's, Ermac's, Kung Lao's to name a few) and it has no problem hitting a cross up attempt out the air into a position that resets the screen. Sub is now in a situation where he has to eat a large amount of chip just to get another chance at mixing him up.

- I think Noob beats, no... MURDERS Sub in the corner. I think so because A) Up-knee laughs in the face of every single wake-up option Sub has except X-Ray... which if predicted and blocked, leaves you in the same precarious position you were in before you wasted it B) In the corner, Noob's strings go from being 'okay' to being a legitimate problem against Sub-Zero. After he takes away the wake-up option, Sub has no choice but to sit there and eat string mixups while having to cope with random Up-knees to keep him in that position. With both the air and ground options removed, I fail to see how Sub can retaliate.


I am still new to this site and competitive MK as a whole, and am very eager to learn. If you can shed some light as to why I'm wrong and debunk my entire post then please do... I'm interested in the thoughts of a veteran.


~Jay

 

[Koompbala]

I think Noob beats, no... MURDERS Sub in the corner. I think so because A) Up-knee laughs in the face of every single wake-up option Sub has except X-Ray... which if predicted and blocked, leaves you in the same precarious position you were in before you wasted it B) In the corner, Noob's strings go from being 'okay' to being a legitimate problem against Sub-Zero. After he takes away the wake-up option, Sub has no choice but to sit there and eat string mixups while having to cope with random Up-knees to keep him in that position. With both the air and ground options removed, I fail to see how Sub can retaliate.

The Only thing I got to say is ice slide should go under upknee and the slide has invincibility on wake up. So he shouldnt murder you in the corner. Other than that I agree with everything else.

 

[Klaudikus]

To add to the mix - f4. On hit confirm you can freeze and it hits crouched blocking characters. I've never managed to get the follow up (1+2) on hit confirm, however.

 

[TAMANAPANTS]

The Only thing I got to say is ice slide should go under upknee and the slide has invincibility on wake up. So he shouldnt murder you in the corner. Other than that I agree with everything else.

A good Noob takes a step back and waits for the slide on wake up once he has you cornered, they don't just hit you with a raw upknee and there is a spacing that you can react to a jump out of the corner or crouch block the slide if it comes. Slide should be a last resort thing or if you see they are being aggresive on wake up. Noob does not need to just rush you down with abandon in the corner once he has a lead and his knockdown. He can just sit and wait and pick you apart slowly. it's in his interest to just let you get up and repeat his attack, or wait for the rash decision.

Sub Zero is very well designed in that the corner is his friend when he is attacking and is pressing the fight, but his worst nightmare if he ends up there.

The main issue I see in this match for Sub Zero is even when he gets in, he cannot really sustain pressure as Noob normally always has 2 bar from the blocked shadows so everytime you get a chance to hurt him, you eat breaker and the match resets and by the time you get near him again you have lost 10 - 20% from chip (outside of a combo) and a few hits into the next combo you land, he breaks you again from the meter he built, plus the meter he is getting from taking damage. When I win in this match with Sub Zero, I have normally always taken at least 50% damage (even if I took no combo), regardless of how good the noob player is as long as they know how to use breakers, specials and Noobs safe string. Throw in someone who can be offensive with Noob and knows his top damage combos and in effect you are looking at a match that boils down to Sub Zero needing 3.5 heavy and unbroken combos without X-Ray to win against Noob needing 1.5-2 because of all the chip you have to take to get into an effective range. It's a match I am racking my brains on right now and I know there are things I need to change, but imo it's the only one I would truly say Sub Zero has disadvantage in at the highest level of play. It boils down to a war of attrition it you're going to win.

EDIT: I'm calling myself out on a few points here - firstly I'm no top player, so I would not know if it is a disadvantage....I'm going off my experience, which is a relatively new person to tournament play. The second this in the space of a day I have realised some things and been given good advice on things I need to do, so I should have saved my judgement a little until I'd spent more time understanding the matchup.

Harsh but fair!

 

[byronchill]

Good stuff in here. I am having the most difficult time with Ermac's. There is no fighting him unless I hit him with a freeze due to his telekinesis. So I stand on the other side of the screen and throw ice at them and block immediately after in hopes that they teleport so I can get an uppercut. Any advice?

 

[TAMANAPANTS]

Dark Rob has said it before - be the aggressive player when using Sub Zero and the fight comes to you - I would go a step further and say be the active player. Although he (SZ) seems defensive/passive, he is not and this is why Tom Brady has said too many people are not playing a complete Sub Zero so don't get his potential (and have dropped him wondering what the fuss is about). Sit 3/4 screen spamming ice clone and ice ball and what is the need for your opponent to do anything - you get no chip or damage from that and that is because you are being passive -and that is what sounds like you are doing vs Ermac. Let go of block and place ice clones in their grill and work in the space that tempts them to do or try something and you are more often than not rewarded for being active. Coming back to your Ermac question specifically, I'm certain when you look at or think about your matches you'll see that you are being too passive. Dash block to close space and work closer to him. Sure you will get hit with some stuff while learning this and in general you can't avoid everything, but sitting back wont get you anywhere unless you get the odd ice ball hitting.

 

[byronchill]

Dark Rob has said it before - be the aggressive player when using Sub Zero and the fight comes to you - I would go a step further and say be the active player. Although he (SZ) seems defensive/passive, he is not and this is why Tom Brady has said too many people are not playing a complete Sub Zero so don't get his potential (and have dropped him wondering what the fuss is about). Sit 3/4 screen spamming ice clone and ice ball and what is the need for your opponent to do anything - you get no chip or damage from that and that is because you are being passive -and that is what sounds like you are doing vs Ermac. Let go of block and place ice clones in their grill and work in the space that tempts them to do or try something and you are more often than not rewarded for being active. Coming back to your Ermac question specifically, I'm certain when you look at or think about your matches you'll see that you are being too passive. Dash block to close space and work closer to him. Sure you will get hit with some stuff while learning this and in general you can't avoid everything, but sitting back wont get you anywhere unless you get the odd ice ball hitting.

Against every other character I embrace hand to hand kombat. However its very possible that ive been hit with Ermac's telekinesis moves so much that i'm scared to even get near him anymore. I'll try that dash block to see if I can catch an opening and get back to fighting. Thanks.