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Question - Ferra/Torr Strengths and Weaknesses

Just curious to see what you guys think are each variation's strengths and weaknesses. Given the tools all 3 variations have, we'll focus on variation specific tools only.

Ruthless
Strength: PnG cancels. Can be used to apply some serious pressure and deal out piles of damage.

Weakness: You have to manage more resources given the stamina required to use PnG cancels and keep a closer eye on his health due to the same.

Vicious
Strength: Boss Toss. Absolutely fantastic tool that can be used to eat up projectiles and add good amounts of meterless damage onto a lot of different combo strings.

Weakness: Can be harder to open your opponent up without the use of PnG cancels/pressure. Lack of good armor and a much slower command grab.

Lackey
Strength: Great armor that has a lot of applications and can be used to get out of the corner, anti air, and cause considerable amounts of chip damage to end out rounds. Oh, and the best D1 in the game!

Weakness: Not having Ferra to throw at your opponent means you have to be in on them to be able to do anything and this can lead to being zoned out easier than in other variations.

What are your thoughts?
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
Ruthless
+ PnG with cancels provide extended combos, mind games, damage buffs, and massive punishes with no meter required.

- PnG bleeds you. Still totally worth it overall.


Vicious
+ Boss Toss is fucking amazing.

- Slow command grab.

- Very poor punishes.

Lackey
+ Great punishes via Torryuken

+ God's d1


- No Ferra = general lack of space control, mixups and counter-zoning

- bf2 is meh
 

Unforgivxble

Don status KHAOTIC Jink
Just curious to see what you guys think are each variation's strengths and weaknesses. Given the tools all 3 variations have, we'll focus on variation specific tools only.

Ruthless
Strength: PnG cancels. Can be used to apply some serious pressure and deal out piles of damage.

Weakness: You have to manage more resources given the stamina required to use PnG cancels and keep a closer eye on his health due to the same.

Vicious
Strength: Boss Toss. Absolutely fantastic tool that can be used to eat up projectiles and add good amounts of meterless damage onto a lot of different combo strings.

Weakness: Can be harder to open your opponent up without the use of PnG cancels/pressure. Lack of good armor and a much slower command grab.

Lackey
Strength: Great armor that has a lot of applications and can be used to get out of the corner, anti air, and cause considerable amounts of chip damage to end out rounds. Oh, and the best D1 in the game!

Weakness: Not having Ferra to throw at your opponent means you have to be in on them to be able to do anything and this can lead to being zoned out easier than in other variations.

What are your thoughts?
I just posted a Ferra torr post lol, that wording tho. I pretty much agree with all of this.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
General
+prolly the best in fight dialogue (FT: "Squeeze and rip you!" LK: "Why do you fight creature?" FT: "To hear bones go crunch crunch") TOOOORRRRIFIC!!!! STAY LAY DOWN BOY!!!
+Ferra is such a sweetie pie <3, and Torr is just adorable
+Master and Slave out fit is rad (alt colours are best colours)
+No need for meter to enhance combos(except Lackey), best saved for reversals and wakeups.

-slow(ish) movement, and some slow pokes (b4, b2)
-lack of variety in moveset
-iffy hitboxes.
-Crossups are pretty free (weak aa)
-pretty low damage (metered or meterless) from someone so big compared to the other characters(except Ruthless)
-OH and mid Ferra toss are useless if your opponent has a fast projectile.

Ruthless

+PnG mind games will melt your brain
+Safe 3 stack set ups (11xxPnG, rc, f2, njp, f3, 4xx PnG, PnG)
+fantastic damage
+OH/projectile mixups, with OH being plus
+Two hits of armour on wakeup command grab(still has a kind of shitty hitbox tho)
+Side switch (and brutality) on EX command grab

-Eating a wakeup with PnG armour can be risky, you're potentially eating 10-12% damage, which becomes a real concern at <30%.
-input errors at low health can lead to a PnG giving your opponent the win(this is really my own fault, still annoying tho).
-Best combo ender (dbf1) throws the opponent fullscreen which can ruin you in some matchups.

Vicious
+Boss Toss is... well just Boss.
+Most satisfying command grab (Stand back! I'm gonna practice my stabbin!!)
+Ferra be stylin in that headdress

-slow as fuck command grab, spending meter on it is about the only way to connect consistently(and is still inconsistent on smaller characters), for relatively little damage payoff, also not a hard knockdown like the other two variation's.
-Boss toss isn't fullscreen, and drops when Torr is hit.
-low damage

Lackey
+God of d1
+has an actual use for meter with bf2, fantastic reversal.
+Projectile invulnerability on bf3 startup, 4 hits of armour on the EX.
+Torr roll helps a lot with maneuverability
+dat throw (RRRAWWWWWWRRR!!!)
+dat b3, 2+4 (RRWWAWWARRRRR!!!)

-Roll doesn't get under high projectiles, and has slow recovery.
-Ferra has no purpose (I realize this is the concept behind the Lackey variation, but the character is still FERRA/Torr, so I find it strange that a variation decides to just abandon half of the character)
-No OH projectile
-No Low projectile
-No mid projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile
-No projectile

I know I'm heavily downplaying how good lackey is, this is mostly in jest (mostly).
 

Jaku2011

Filled with determination
Idk I find the slow command grab pretty decent ticks off f3 and standing 1 (hit or block) I don't see how it's any worse than the other 2, just used differently.
 

Kamikaze_Highlander

PSN: Windude008
Idk I find the slow command grab pretty decent ticks off f3 and standing 1 (hit or block) I don't see how it's any worse than the other 2, just used differently.
I've been meaning to test it, but I bet 6-8 frame pokes can interrupt it. It's so reactable, there's no guessing involved on your opponents side, which defeats the purpose of a tick throw, my understanding is that ticks are on block, and when they come out of blockstun before the active frames, it's not really a tick anymore. I think it is objectively worse than the others, slower, not a hard knockdown, can't pick which side, and burning meter on it only gives it like 5% and launches them for no combo extending.
 

KuralKing

Never forget The Great Ferra/Torr Scare!
Ferra/Torr strength is that you will blow people up in matches because nobody seems to care about them except the people who play them, weakness is that people that don't play or know much about the character will state that he is godlike supergood against everything and people will listen to them instead those who play them because "we" are downplaying....


 

Jaku2011

Filled with determination
I've been meaning to test it, but I bet 6-8 frame pokes can interrupt it. It's so reactable, there's no guessing involved on your opponents side, which defeats the purpose of a tick throw, my understanding is that ticks are on block, and when they come out of blockstun before the active frames, it's not really a tick anymore. I think it is objectively worse than the others, slower, not a hard knockdown, can't pick which side, and burning meter on it only gives it like 5% and launches them for no combo extending.
Well than nobody knows the matchup, I've never seen anyone react to it, Hell I've seen people get out of b1 tick throw from Jason more lol. Reacting to a 11 or 1 tick and f32 and f3 tick throw seems harder to me than you're giving it credit for.
 

REO

Undead
Ruthless

+ Rushdown and frame advantage with Pain and Gain Cancels

+ Meterless combos and conversions with Pain and Gain Cancels

+ Anti-Wake Up set-ups

+ Heavy Damage potential

- Health Consumption

- Stamina Dependent

- Weak wake-ups




Vicious

+ Anti-Zoning enhancement with Boss Toss

+ Footsie enhancement with Boss Toss

+ Keep away distance combo enders with Boss Toss

+ Multitude of added tick throw set ups with slower Command grab





Lackey

+ Armor launcher

+ Good wake-ups

+ Good anti-air with EX D,B+2

+ Best D+1 in the game

+ Fast reversal

+ Very fast command grab

+ Easier to get in on zoners with the use of some EX specials

- No zoning

- Less effective from range

- Slower 50/50 mix ups
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I guess I should step in here...

@ahem*

Ferra/Torr

This character has some obvious weaknesses, but some not-so-obvious strengths. Please note that my listing of these is only based on what we as a community have found so far. There could be more or changes could occur later on.

Synopsis:
Ferra/Torr is a unique character whom has access to a feature no other character does: Ferra. While it is well known that she can eat projectiles and possesses a presence as an OH/Low projectile, she also has other properties that operate from her hit/hurt box being seperate from Torr. She exists to extend Torr's range, but also moves involving her tend to do more damage than normal and provide greater launch than Torr can achieve alone. The trade off is while she is present, Torr isn't capable of his full solo potential, losing the ability to finish certain strings or even perform certain moves without her mounted on his back. They have three variations: Ruthless, Vicious, and Lackey, and while most characters in this game have a main variations with two supplementary variations, F/T requires all 3 variations to be known in order to be used effectively. Players looking to learn Ferra/Torr will have to cope with their biggest weakness: The lack of a reliable anti-air. Past that, the character is dominant on multiple fields and nothing short of a monster in the corner.

General:
+ Ferra/Torr has access to a variety of moves that gain advantage depending on when they hit during the animation. This effect spans from making moves gain 2 to 3 frames of advantage to making a -7 move into a +7 move.
+ Because Ferra is counted separate from Torr, any moves that involve her hitting outside of Torr's hurtbox cannot be parried, reflected, or block broken. She will either go through those moves, or cause a mis-input to occur and an x-ray to come out instead (in the case of block breaker)
+ Obscenely long limbs mean he can poke from almost incontestable distances, and the relatively fast speed of the moves means he can provide a decent defensive wall when needed.
+ Long limbs also mean a longer grab reach, memory serving the longest or second longest in the game.
+ Most of his best neutral moves are safe or advantageous on block/hit (b.12, d.3, etc)

- No variation has a reliable anti-air when it comes to the top of Torr's head.
- Charge is unsafe in all variations (moreso in Lackey than the others though)

Ruthless:
+ Pain and Gain is a strong damage buff that trades off well for its cost, and can be reapplied liberally.
+ Pain and Gain has 1/2/5 hits of armor upon start-up, making it an excellent tool for fielding opponent's attacks.
+ Pain and Gain cancels are high in advantage frames and can provide some immense pressure on opponents without solid answers
+ With the damage increases comes increases to chip damage, something quite effective when you consider moves like Ferra Toss are +6 on block at the least, and +9 at the highest.
+ Neutral jump punch reaches pretty far
+ Command Grab has 2 hits of armor when meterburned, meaning it eats through a lot of anti-armor tactics on wake-up.
+ Because Pain and Gain has natural armor, works well as a flash parry.
+ Can gain up to 3 Pain and Gain stacks in a single combo.
+ Mb grab can throw them in either direction
+ Has the best corner pressure option with
b.12xx OH toss -> b.12/b.121/grab -> b.12xxOH Toss/b.12/b.121/b.12xxPnG/Command Grab/Grab/Mb command Grab/f.2 making for a 33/33/33 into a 12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5, which on hit leaves Ferra/Torr at about +19 or so and the gap is too small for anything not armored to get through after the OH toss and even then MB command grab exists as an option to counter it.

- Lacks the trade potential of the other two
- Even with the advantage provided by the cancels, links are still possible to drop
- Clicking off of armor causes full damage per hit (meaning for a level 3 pain and gain, D'vorah EX bug spray could remove in upwards of 40% by itself)
- Stacks can be hard to build against high-pressure situations
- The health loss can be worse when facing opponents such as Erron Black, Venomous D'vorah, or Noxious Reptile as damage over time makes the damage trade-off less advantageous
- Because of its lack of trade-potential, characters with better footsies cause issues.
- Wake-ups are lacking without Ferra, limited to two options both of which have a universal answer.
- Most opponents don't have to respect a lot of your moves, since only certain moves are really good for cancels

Ruthless is the damage tank of the variations, and has its place against opponents who need to be in close, but cannot amount long terms of pressure. This includes enemies like Shinnok, Takeda, Tremor, and Quan Chi, all of which depend on a certain set-up to keep pressure going, and all of which can be met with a pain and gain to blunt the hit and provide an opening. However, Ruthless struggles against those opponents who can provide continuous pressure, being the likes of Kung Lao, Tanya, Erron Black, and Jax. Against these opponents, Pain and gain doesn't grant any real advantage as we will be unable to stop their pressure which just comes as natural, and will instead be an offering of unmitigated damage for the enemies.


Vicious:
+ Boss Toss is the ultimate respect move, becoming active after just 7 frames and providing the potential for upwards of 45% meterless damage if the opponent recklessly pokes into us.
+ Between Ferra Toss, Boss Toss, and Bowl Girl, Vicious can cover every avenue of entry and can provide incredibly potent counter-zoning options.
+ Because of its slower speed, Little Kutter can open unexpected avenues of attack through throws, and leaves the opponent in a better position than other throw options.
+ Normal throw leaves the opponent at perfect Boss Toss spacing
+ Boss Toss itself does potent damage at 16% for a ranged move, and because of the duration it can wear out certain buff effects such as blood sacrifice or Pain and Gain.
+ Boss Toss causes a stagger, which can throw off reversal timings and, against some characters, provide big advantages due to their longer stagger animations.
+ Since this variation relies more on Ferra than any other, specific note must be made to certain moves like b.3 which, on their own, provide so much space and time that Ferra can remount safely.
+ In the corner, after a landed Boss Toss Ferra can return almost immediately.

- Mb grab cannot throw them in any direction
- Due to dependency on Ferra, is the weakest in terms of wake-ups due to the lack of good armored attacks and the slow speed of command grab.
- Has some issues with opponents whose projectiles can't be eaten through, or can negate the advantage Ferra provides
- Offense is choppy at best, due to how much you need Ferra and how often she is off of your back.
- Due to the lack of real cancels, pressure can be iffy in some cases because you'll never want to voluntarily give up Ferra unless you can ensure she gets back before you get mowed.
- Great everywhere except for point blank and full screen, where vicious suffers most.

Vicious is the defensive wall, but also the best counter-poker around. Boss toss can fit beautifully into a lot of situations and, if it trades with anything that doesn't knockdown immediately or has too much hitstun, you can reap huge benefits from it. This is even more obvious in matches where Torr can force this trade to happen, such as against Goro's long wind-up moves or Cassie's air guns. This is why Vicious excels at fighting characters who rely on staggered or delayed pressure situations to win, such as Tanya, or against opponents whose zoning can be countered and pushed through (Kitana, for example). However, Vicious suffers heavily against characters with access to teleports (scorpion, Imposter Shinnok) or moves that can't simply be eaten through (Demolition/Drone sonya) or provide less benefit due to much higher hit-stun (Stunt Double Cage). Other variations cover these weak points, but the do exist and must be noted.


Lackey:
+ Easily has the best neutral moves on the ground out of the 3, with a 6 frame d.1 with huge reach, a safe and true b.23 2+4, and the fast command grab.
+ Can combo out of most moves with d.1 into something, meaning conversions come easy.
+ TORRRRRYUKEN
+ Torryuken can trade in the corner for more combo potential, though it scales more and is not as useful as Boss Toss.
+ Has all of his wake-ups available to him, meaning he is the best when coming from knockdown.
+ Can convert off of his roll in combos, and the roll can become safe on block and potent when meaty (2 f.4 into roll, for example)
+ Good at scrapping, meaning trade-for-trade you'll usually gain more advantage or damage consistently.
+ Combos are easy to learn, less micro-management with Ferra.
+ Good pressure options out of his knockdowns
+ Charge has natural armor, and EX charge has 4 hits of it that gradually wear off as Torr runs across the screen
+ Charge has natural projectile immunity on start-up, meaning some character set-ups are less effective (such as Tremor's lava rain, or meaty grenades/hell sparks)
+ MB roll covers the entire screen in 18 frames, and can be comboed out of
+ Charge leaves them close enough for corpse-hop shenanigans
+ Mb Charge doesn't really care about combo scaling.
+ Mb grab can throw them in any direction
+ Lots of great "Get off me" moves to deal with characters who try to force their ways in

- No projectiles means you can be zoned out, especially since roll has so much recovery normally and doesn't duck projectiles
- Charge is unsafe and slow, meaning most characters can hit you with two from full before you get in
- Mb torryuken has a habit of going over the opponents, and is secretly like -6.
- Meterless damage is some of the lowest out of the 3.
- Roll combos are hard
- Moves lose armor at vital moments (Mb roll after the first 9 frames, MB Torryuken after the first 10, Charge after the first 6 and MB charge dips 1 armor off every 6 frames)
- No answer to certain zone control moves (Clone specifically)
- No anti-air is still a problem
- Loses a major spacing tool in n.j.p, and some big advantage earners in Ferra Toss and Boss Toss
- Opponent doesn't have to respect your options, since most are pretty bad on block
- Command grab throws them full screen usually

Lackey is the pure rushdown offensive outcast compared to the other two. Playing defensive isn't an option, though thats not to say he doesn't have the best options out of the 3 for doing so up close. Purely a scrapper, he has the best time dealing with opponents the other two can't contend with because of their need for Ferra to be there. He lacks the weakness on wake-up, but trades out a huge weakness in his lack of presence anywhere but right in their face. This means characters that he can't handle (GM sub zero, Goro, Quan Chi) have to be handled by his other variations. However, in the usual give and take manner, the few opponents the first two cannot fight off Lackey has the best chance against, being Sonya and Johnny, Scorpion, BS Shinnok, and the like. He excels against opponents whose pressure doesn't rely on projectiles, and has the gaps that vicious can't trade into and Ruthless can't force to take advantage of.




I hope this helps a bit with your post.
 
Last edited:

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
Idk I find the slow command grab pretty decent ticks off f3 and standing 1 (hit or block) I don't see how it's any worse than the other 2, just used differently.
There's a number of problems with this though: you can't tick throw off f3 on hit. You can try it on block, but it's totally punishable. Since you don't have time to block confirm this, trying it is unsafe, and in my opinion 12% damage is not worth the risk.

Tick throwing off standing 1 has the same issue--it's punishable on block but works on hit for 14%. But what's the point? Because if you land the standing 1 you can just string into 1, 1 xx bf4 (18%) or 1, 1 xx db2 (13%). There is no need to risk punishable tick throws that only work on hit but not block, or vice versa, when the damage isn't even very good.
 

Jaku2011

Filled with determination
There's a number of problems with this though: you can't tick throw off f3 on hit. You can try it on block, but it's totally punishable. Since you don't have time to block confirm this, trying it is unsafe, and in my opinion 12% damage is not worth the risk.

Tick throwing off standing 1 has the same issue--it's punishable on block but works on hit for 14%. But what's the point? Because if you land the standing 1 you can just string into 1, 1 xx bf4 (18%) or 1, 1 xx db2 (13%). There is no need to risk punishable tick throws that only work on hit but not block, or vice versa, when the damage isn't even very good.
It works on hit or block. What do you mean punishable? That it's reactable? I think reacting to a s1 command grab is fairly difficult. As for f3, well that's why you do it when you know they're in a blocking mood, command grab isn't the main tool here but people are acting like it's useless and I think I've played the character enough (since launch!) to say it's far from it. Seems others are agreeing with me as well, REO listed it as a positive anyway.
 

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
It works on hit or block. What do you mean punishable? That it's reactable? I think reacting to a s1 command grab is fairly difficult. As for f3, well that's why you do it when you know they're in a blocking mood, command grab isn't the main tool here but people are acting like it's useless and I think I've played the character enough (since launch!) to say it's far from it. Seems others are agreeing with me as well, REO listed it as a positive anyway.
It's not so much that they react, but I think they could just option select reversal. After you do it once or twice they will catch on, and that's when it's potentially punishable. Part of the reason I don't ever use the Vicious tick throws is that I play the AI a lot, and they don't let you get away with anything--they really do react in about 1 frame.

If it's your thing then I guess that's something. I just don't like to take those sort of risks. Give me a true tick throw that works on both hit or block, like Jason has, and I'd be all over that.
 

Wetdoba

All too easy...
I guess I should step in here...

@ahem*

Ferra/Torr

This character has some obvious weaknesses, but some not-so-obvious strengths. Please note that my listing of these is only based on what we as a community have found so far. There could be more or changes could occur later on.

Synopsis:
Ferra/Torr is a unique character whom has access to a feature no other character does: Ferra. While it is well known that she can eat projectiles and possesses a presence as an OH/Low projectile, she also has other properties that operate from her hit/hurt box being seperate from Torr. She exists to extend Torr's range, but also moves involving her tend to do more damage than normal and provide greater launch than Torr can achieve alone. The trade off is while she is present, Torr isn't capable of his full solo potential, losing the ability to finish certain strings or even perform certain moves without her mounted on his back. They have three variations: Ruthless, Vicious, and Lackey, and while most characters in this game have a main variations with two supplementary variations, F/T requires all 3 variations to be known in order to be used effectively. Players looking to learn Ferra/Torr will have to cope with their biggest weakness: The lack of a reliable anti-air. Past that, the character is dominant on multiple fields and nothing short of a monster in the corner.

General:
+ Ferra/Torr has access to a variety of moves that gain advantage depending on when they hit during the animation. This effect spans from making moves gain 2 to 3 frames of advantage to making a -7 move into a +7 move.
+ Because Ferra is counted separate from Torr, any moves that involve her hitting outside of Torr's hurtbox cannot be parried, reflected, or block broken. She will either go through those moves, or cause a mis-input to occur and an x-ray to come out instead (in the case of block breaker)
+ Obscenely long limbs mean he can poke from almost incontestable distances, and the relatively fast speed of the moves means he can provide a decent defensive wall when needed.
+ Long limbs also mean a longer grab reach, memory serving the longest or second longest in the game.
+ Most of his best neutral moves are safe or advantageous on block/hit (b.12, d.3, etc)

- No variation has a reliable anti-air when it comes to the top of Torr's head.
- Charge is unsafe in all variations (moreso in Lackey than the others though)

Ruthless:
+ Pain and Gain is a strong damage buff that trades off well for its cost, and can be reapplied liberally.
+ Pain and Gain has 1/2/5 hits of armor upon start-up, making it an excellent tool for fielding opponent's attacks.
+ Pain and Gain cancels are high in advantage frames and can provide some immense pressure on opponents without solid answers
+ With the damage increases comes increases to chip damage, something quite effective when you consider moves like Ferra Toss are +6 on block at the least, and +9 at the highest.
+ Neutral jump punch reaches pretty far
+ Command Grab has 2 hits of armor when meterburned, meaning it eats through a lot of anti-armor tactics on wake-up.
+ Because Pain and Gain has natural armor, works well as a flash parry.
+ Can gain up to 3 Pain and Gain stacks in a single combo.
+ Mb grab can throw them in either direction
+ Has the best corner pressure option with
b.12xx OH toss -> b.12/b.121/grab -> b.12xxOH Toss/b.12/b.121/b.12xxPnG/Command Grab/Grab/Mb command Grab/f.2 making for a 33/33/33 into a 12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5, which on hit leaves Ferra/Torr at about +19 or so and the gap is too small for anything not armored to get through after the OH toss and even then MB command grab exists as an option to counter it.

- Lacks the trade potential of the other two
- Even with the advantage provided by the cancels, links are still possible to drop
- Clicking off of armor causes full damage per hit (meaning for a level 3 pain and gain, D'vorah EX bug spray could remove in upwards of 40% by itself)
- Stacks can be hard to build against high-pressure situations
- The health loss can be worse when facing opponents such as Erron Black, Venomous D'vorah, or Noxious Reptile as damage over time makes the damage trade-off less advantageous
- Because of its lack of trade-potential, characters with better footsies cause issues.
- Wake-ups are lacking without Ferra, limited to two options both of which have a universal answer.
- Most opponents don't have to respect a lot of your moves, since only certain moves are really good for cancels

Ruthless is the damage tank of the variations, and has its place against opponents who need to be in close, but cannot amount long terms of pressure. This includes enemies like Shinnok, Takeda, Tremor, and Quan Chi, all of which depend on a certain set-up to keep pressure going, and all of which can be met with a pain and gain to blunt the hit and provide an opening. However, Ruthless struggles against those opponents who can provide continuous pressure, being the likes of Kung Lao, Tanya, Erron Black, and Jax. Against these opponents, Pain and gain doesn't grant any real advantage as we will be unable to stop their pressure which just comes as natural, and will instead be an offering of unmitigated damage for the enemies.


Vicious:
+ Boss Toss is the ultimate respect move, becoming active after just 7 frames and providing the potential for upwards of 45% meterless damage if the opponent recklessly pokes into us.
+ Between Ferra Toss, Boss Toss, and Bowl Girl, Vicious can cover every avenue of entry and can provide incredibly potent counter-zoning options.
+ Because of its slower speed, Little Kutter can open unexpected avenues of attack through throws, and leaves the opponent in a better position than other throw options.
+ Normal throw leaves the opponent at perfect Boss Toss spacing
+ Boss Toss itself does potent damage at 16% for a ranged move, and because of the duration it can wear out certain buff effects such as blood sacrifice or Pain and Gain.
+ Boss Toss causes a stagger, which can throw off reversal timings and, against some characters, provide big advantages due to their longer stagger animations.
+ Since this variation relies more on Ferra than any other, specific note must be made to certain moves like b.3 which, on their own, provide so much space and time that Ferra can remount safely.
+ In the corner, after a landed Boss Toss Ferra can return almost immediately.

- Mb grab cannot throw them in any direction
- Due to dependency on Ferra, is the weakest in terms of wake-ups due to the lack of good armored attacks and the slow speed of command grab.
- Has some issues with opponents whose projectiles can't be eaten through, or can negate the advantage Ferra provides
- Offense is choppy at best, due to how much you need Ferra and how often she is off of your back.
- Due to the lack of real cancels, pressure can be iffy in some cases because you'll never want to voluntarily give up Ferra unless you can ensure she gets back before you get mowed.
- Great everywhere except for point blank and full screen, where vicious suffers most.

Vicious is the defensive wall, but also the best counter-poker around. Boss toss can fit beautifully into a lot of situations and, if it trades with anything that doesn't knockdown immediately or has too much hitstun, you can reap huge benefits from it. This is even more obvious in matches where Torr can force this trade to happen, such as against Goro's long wind-up moves or Cassie's air guns. This is why Vicious excels at fighting characters who rely on staggered or delayed pressure situations to win, such as Tanya, or against opponents whose zoning can be countered and pushed through (Kitana, for example). However, Vicious suffers heavily against characters with access to teleports (scorpion, Imposter Shinnok) or moves that can't simply be eaten through (Demolition/Drone sonya) or provide less benefit due to much higher hit-stun (Stunt Double Cage). Other variations cover these weak points, but the do exist and must be noted.


Lackey:
+ Easily has the best neutral moves on the ground out of the 3, with a 6 frame d.1 with huge reach, a safe and true b.23 2+4, and the fast command grab.
+ Can combo out of most moves with d.1 into something, meaning conversions come easy.
+ TORRRRRYUKEN
+ Torryuken can trade in the corner for more combo potential, though it scales more and is not as useful as Boss Toss.
+ Has all of his wake-ups available to him, meaning he is the best when coming from knockdown.
+ Can convert off of his roll in combos, and the roll can become safe on block and potent when meaty (2 f.4 into roll, for example)
+ Good at scrapping, meaning trade-for-trade you'll usually gain more advantage or damage consistently.
+ Combos are easy to learn, less micro-management with Ferra.
+ Good pressure options out of his knockdowns
+ Charge has natural armor, and EX charge has 4 hits of it that gradually wear off as Torr runs across the screen
+ Charge has natural projectile immunity on start-up, meaning some character set-ups are less effective (such as Tremor's lava rain, or meaty grenades/hell sparks)
+ MB roll covers the entire screen in 18 frames, and can be comboed out of
+ Charge leaves them close enough for corpse-hop shenanigans
+ Mb Charge doesn't really care about combo scaling.
+ Mb grab can throw them in any direction
+ Lots of great "Get off me" moves to deal with characters who try to force their ways in

- No projectiles means you can be zoned out, especially since roll has so much recovery normally and doesn't duck projectiles
- Charge is unsafe and slow, meaning most characters can hit you with two from full before you get in
- Mb torryuken has a habit of going over the opponents, and is secretly like -6.
- Meterless damage is some of the lowest out of the 3.
- Roll combos are hard
- Moves lose armor at vital moments (Mb roll after the first 9 frames, MB Torryuken after the first 10, Charge after the first 6 and MB charge dips 1 armor off every 6 frames)
- No answer to certain zone control moves (Clone specifically)
- No anti-air is still a problem
- Loses a major spacing tool in n.j.p, and some big advantage earners in Ferra Toss and Boss Toss
- Opponent doesn't have to respect your options, since most are pretty bad on block
- Command grab throws them full screen usually

Lackey is the pure rushdown offensive outcast compared to the other two. Playing defensive isn't an option, though thats not to say he doesn't have the best options out of the 3 for doing so up close. Purely a scrapper, he has the best time dealing with opponents the other two can't contend with because of their need for Ferra to be there. He lacks the weakness on wake-up, but trades out a huge weakness in his lack of presence anywhere but right in their face. This means characters that he can't handle (GM sub zero, Goro, Quan Chi) have to be handled by his other variations. However, in the usual give and take manner, the few opponents the first two cannot fight off Lackey has the best chance against, being Sonya and Johnny, Scorpion, BS Shinnok, and the like. He excels against opponents whose pressure doesn't rely on projectiles, and has the gaps that vicious can't trade into and Ruthless can't force to take advantage of.




I hope this helps a bit with your post.
Nice post Doom. For EX Torryuken though its got to be -7 at least though because characters with 6 frame normal punishes like Jax S1, Raiden F1, Shinnok F4 etc can all punish it on block and you have to add the 1 frame to normal reversals on block right?
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Nice post Doom. For EX Torryuken though its got to be -7 at least though because characters with 6 frame normal punishes like Jax S1, Raiden F1, Shinnok F4 etc can all punish it on block and you have to add the 1 frame to normal reversals on block right?
Yeah, I probably just put the wrong number but you know what I mean.

is this a monty python reference?
No, it actually has 1/2/5 hits of armor