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Question Stopping with missiles, now throwing thunder

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
I main Sektor since MK3, but in my search for a new main i've decided to finally pick up the Thunder God. So i have some scrub questions:

1. Meter management. How do you usually manage the meter?
2. Evaluate advantages and disvantages of him.
3. Tips for a rushdown Raiden. I like to play that sort of style and i'm trying to deploy this in his game.
4. What are the Raiden's strings that jail?
5. What to do and what NOT to do?
6. What's Raiden best AA and what's Raiden's best combo off of Air to Air punch?
7. How to proceed with the Mileena MU?
8. I usually do JiP b312~Shocker 334 b3~Superman as main BnB, in corner i do JiP 334~VB 334~Shocker 33~Superman/X-Ray. These are good choices or should i change them?

In general i'm not finding many difficulties in adapting, but it is always good to hear from those who have more experience and knowledge. I have read good part of the forum, but are always some doubts, so i decided to open that thread.

Thanks in advance, excuse me for bad english and may the Elder Gods watch over you.
 

4x4lo8o

Warrior
1) Save meter mostly for breaker. What's left will probably go towards ex-teleport and ex-lightning setups. Ex-superman and ex-shocker have armor(ex-superman is good for armoring through projectiles and occasionally getting out of pressure, ex-shocker leads to a full combo but is slow. I mostly use ex-shocker for anti crossup), and ex-shocker is hit confirmed into some combos where normal shocker won't work, but you probably won't be using either of those too much in most match ups. Ex-vicinity blast is almost useless, don't use it. Xray can be a decent use for meter, situationally of course. It's fast, has good range, safe on block, does decent damage, and aa's, so sometimes it's worth sitting on xray just so the opponent has to respect you.
Raiden's meter building is fairly average. He doesn't have a pressure game that gets him much meter and he can't really spam projectiles to build meter either(although you can throw out vb's fairly safely from full screen) but he does build decent meter from his combos and most of his damage isn't meter dependent, so meter management is probably less important for Raiden than some characters. Just don't throw out random ex-moves and you should be fine.

2) Disadvantages: slow, holes in strings, low comeback factor, high hitbox, lackluster pressure, poor zoning
Advantages: teleport is an amazing tool, strong footsies, strong whiff punishing, strong corner game

3) Conventional wisdom seems to say turtle Raiden is the best Raiden. Most people seem to say that Raiden is a turtle character and isn't best played by rushing down. On the other hand the most high profile and successful Raiden players are B Whizz and Perfect Legend, and they both play rushdown heavy Raiden's and in general turtle Raidens seem hard to find.
I prefer the defensive approach myself, but I think the key to rushdown Raiden is using teleport unpredictably to keep your opponents off balance. It's not easy to do, but it can be very difficult for your opponent to find a rhythm if you're constantly appearing behind them when they attack, disappearing out of their strings, and disrupting their pressure after even the tiniest of gaps. You have to be in their head. The second they think they've got your teleport figured out throw in an enhanced teleport and score a full combo while making them second guess their own reads.
I think rushdown Raiden is sort of a misnomer, though. You can play an aggressive Raiden, but even then rushdown Raiden doesn't really exist. Proper spacing is incredibly important. One of B Wizz's favourite tricks is to bait a poke, space it so the poke whiffs, and blow them up with b312. He can make you fall for it even when you know it's what he's doing. Raiden seems best at just outside sweep distance, that's where all his best options start. If you want to be up in the opponents face, trying to sustain pressure the entire match, you might want check out another character. Raiden requires lots of good reads and reactions and at times requires lots of patience and focus on footsies and spacing. Your damage is never going to come from mix-ups and chip - you can't just take it from your opponent, you have to make him give it to you.

4) 1212, 22, f23, and b2f1 jail, I think

5) Not to do: fullscreen yolo superman's and random teleports. Superman is full combo punishable and it's not as fast or unexpected as you think. Use it mostly for whiff punishing. Don't let the opponent bait it out. Teleporting leaves you standing next to the opponent defenseless for 19 frames. That's not something you want to do carelessly. Again, don't let the opponent bait it.

Do: Whiff punish. Make your opponent screw up, then punish him. Raiden does this better than anyone else in the game.
Make the opponent play your game. Raiden doesn't have to put up with anyone's shit. Frames traps don't exist for Raiden. Raiden can get out of pressure whenever he wants. Raiden can't be put in the corner. The opponent can't even touch you unless you let them. Good luck trying to zone. If your opponent isn't frustrated, you aren't doing it right. Your opponent should hate this match up.

6) I use 1~vb, dash, shocker, 33~vb, b3~superman(30%) for aa and dash, shocker, 33~vb, b3~superman(23%) after an air to air punch
Also useful for aa and anticrossover - enhanced shocker, 1~vb, 334, superman(30%)

7)
Use 1~vb, dash, shocker, 33~vb, b3~superman to punish roll and telekick and use d1, 1~shocker, 33~vb, b3~superman to punish ex-telekick. Don't jump much. Don't get hit by wake-up rolls. D4 is really annoying. Get her to whiff it then punish with superman.

8) I wouldn't do b312 after a jump in punch. It's slow, negative on block, and has 2 giant holes in it. In general it's not the best pressure string. B312 is more of a whiff punishing string used in conjunction with footsies. 1212, 22, f23, and b2f1 are all decent strings to mix in after a jump in punch because they don't have holes and leave you at neutral and with more options if blocked. If I am fishing for big damage off a jip I usually use 334, but b312 works.
If you do land b312 that is the most damaging combo. The other midscreen combos worth learning are 334~teleport, 1/f2/d3~shocker, 33~vb, b3~superman and 121/22~shocker, f2~vb, 334, superman.

In the corner you want to do jip, 334~vb, 4, 334, 33/f23~shocker, 33/f23~superman. 46%
It's also worth learning corner combos off all his other strings, though. Raiden should be getting at least 35-40% every time you touch them in the corner. At the very least know f24, d1~shocker, 334, f23/33~superman and b312, 4, 334, f23/33~shocker, f23/33~superman which both do 41%
 

Darth Mao

Your Tech is Mine! #buffRaiden
WOW! OMFG! Too much information haha, it will help me a lot. Thanks for all. I thought i was playing the wrong way, but i see that i already do much of what you posted. I feel i'm on the right path, then haha.

Lately i've been using the meter only for breakers, have not found any use to be used otherwise. Only in X-Ray's and always at the end of the round after a well-timed Teleport. So, more scrub questions:

1) Is Ex-Vicinity Blast and Ex-Shocker safe on block?
2) How would a "Turtle Raiden"? Is not a style that i like, despite spending time maining Sub-Zero, but I'll try if it's effective.
3) I've been having some difficulty in adapting myself in combat against characters with Teleport in general, so the rules to punish Mileena can also be used, with appropriate adaptations, against other characters with the same feature?


Thanks again for all the info, i was afraid to post before and didn't get any answer. Would be valid if we all come together to make a complete guide to the Thunder God.
 

4x4lo8o

Warrior
Posts like this are why TYM is the #1 source for everything Mortal Kombat. A great reply.
:oops: That's the nicest thing anyone's every said to me on this site. Usually I just get blown up, haha
I really want the Raiden forums to be more active and for more people to play the character. I do everything I can

WOW! OMFG! Too much information haha, it will help me a lot. Thanks for all. I thought i was playing the wrong way, but i see that i already do much of what you posted. I feel i'm on the right path, then haha.

Lately i've been using the meter only for breakers, have not found any use to be used otherwise. Only in X-Ray's and always at the end of the round after a well-timed Teleport. So, more scrub questions:

1) Is Ex-Vicinity Blast and Ex-Shocker safe on block?
2) How would a "Turtle Raiden"? Is not a style that i like, despite spending time maining Sub-Zero, but I'll try if it's effective.
3) I've been having some difficulty in adapting myself in combat against characters with Teleport in general, so the rules to punish Mileena can also be used, with appropriate adaptations, against other characters with the same feature?

Thanks again for all the info, i was afraid to post before and didn't get any answer. Would be valid if we all come together to make a complete guide to the Thunder God.
1) Ex-vb is neutral on block, the problem is that you can crouch it and it's slow so you get punished if they see it coming. On top of that, even it does hit it launches but you can't get anything more than a superman off of it outside the corner. There might be some uses for, but it's extremely situational and I can't think of any particularly good way to integrate it into your game.
Ex-shocker is not safe at all, if blocked it's a full combo punish. It's best used when you know they're not going to block. I usually use it for cross up defense when I can't get them off me and want something more consistent than d1 and for when they're not respecting me on wake up. The other use ex-shocker has is inside certain combos. f23~shocker and b2f1~shocker both whiff, but f23~ex-shocker and b2f1~ex-shocker connect and are hit confirmable into full combo. F23 and b2f1 are both useful in your pressure game because they're neutral on block and cancel into a safe teleport. Usually you use them as block string but on the event they do hit you can use ex-shocker to convert into bigger damage

2) The general idea behind turtle Raiden is that once Raiden gets a life lead it's very hard to come back. Raiden has a lot of tools, like his very good back dash, superman, and teleport, that make him very hard to touch. That, on top of his strong whiff punishing tools make Raiden really excel as a defensive character. He's also aided by the fact that moves like superman and his throw leave the opponent at full screen distance, which is exactly where you like them to be if you're turtling. It can take a lot of discipline to play patiently, but in the end it's a lot simpler and less work than playing Raiden aggressively. You can sit there and wait for the opponent to give you opportunities, and often times the more patient you play the more frustrated and reckless your opponent will get. Your goal is to capitalize on that
With Raiden you can force the opponent to play at your pace, and if they can't handle that it's over.

3) No. Mileena is uniquely difficult to punish. You have to constantly use air juggles with her and it leads to less damage and in general a more difficult to perform punish.
Most opponents after a blocked teleport end up in that ball for a second and then are still unable to block for a few frames after they land on the ground. You wait until they hit the ground and then full combo punish with b312. The timing is pretty easy and it should become second nature pretty quickly.
You don't want to crouch when character like Smoke and Scorpion teleport. If you crouch it they're generally safe. Just stand block and get a full combo punish.
 

zaf

professor
Good write up 4x4, but you are wrong about one thing. Raiden is not the best whiff punisher in the game, i can name several better then him:

Cyrax, kitana, smoke, ermac, kabal,
 

4x4lo8o

Warrior
Good write up 4x4, but you are wrong about one thing. Raiden is not the best whiff punisher in the game, i can name several better then him:

Cyrax, kitana, smoke, ermac, kabal,
If you're talking strictly about the punishing part, I agree. It's hard to compete with characters that can do 50%+ midscreen. His b312 is a very good whiff punishing string and superman allows him to punish where a lot of other character can't, but those can't compete with something like Cyrax's net and resets. However, I think Raiden has an advantage compared to most of those characters when it comes to actually causing the whiffs and opening up chances to punish. He's pretty uniquely equipped for avoiding attacks and causing mistakes, and I was referring to that as much as his ability to hit hard afterwards.
 

zaf

professor
If you're talking strictly about the punishing part, I agree. It's hard to compete with characters that can do 50%+ midscreen. His b312 is a very good whiff punishing string and superman allows him to punish where a lot of other character can't, but those can't compete with something like Cyrax's net and resets. However, I think Raiden has an advantage compared to most of those characters when it comes to actually causing the whiffs and opening up chances to punish. He's pretty uniquely equipped for avoiding attacks and causing mistakes, and I was referring to that as much as his ability to hit hard afterwards.
No i dont mean just damage. Those characters i listed all have great normals and specials for whiff punishing.

They all set it up very well too
 

SirRaven

Teleport tickle fail
Raiden is 100% about whiff punishing or baiting something to punish (I guess you can say that about the majority of the game, I guess). The thing is, there are characters that specialize at zoning and others at rushing. Raiden is neither. He takes patience, execution, and a keen eye for the opponent's tendencies.