Question Smoke Questions

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

There seems to be a debate in the community about smoke. i don't want to talk about if people are up playing or downplaying or whatever, and i don't want to blow anybody up. I just want to know a couple things about what the community as a whole thinks and what smoke players think.

1. What is stopping from smoke from using d4 over and over again? Everybody knows smokes b2 is a very scary overhead leading to full combo and a possible 100 percent reset. Would that not make opponents stand up and allow smoke players to just d4 until opponents finally crouch block? This would make his offense very good in theory.

2. Escape options- say smoke is being pressured by cage. is a low poke into smoke away a viable escape? What about ex smoke away? I mean its not safe armor or whatever but it should work.

Once again, this thread is not about tier list position or down playing. Just things that people are talking about and need to be discussed imo
i could have posted this in the questions thread but i feel like more of the community will get involved this way.

 

[Smarrgasm]

What have you done? You have openly asked the downplayers and non downplayers to convene for arguing. Oh dear lord.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

What have you done? You have openly asked the downplayers and non downplayers to convene for arguing. Oh dear lord.

yeah i know but i figure we may as well get as much of it out of the system as possible and maybe just maybe we can get some answers. Worst case I just have the thread closed if it gets out of hand. we might as well try.

 

[RYX]

I think there's a small window where you can hit Smoke out of Smoke Away before he goes invincible. So, yes, Cage should be able to counterpoke.

There's a 5f window from a blocked D1 apparently.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I think there's a small window where you can hit Smoke out of Smoke Away before he goes invincible. So, yes, Cage should be able to counterpoke.

There's a 5f window from a blocked D1 apparently.

yeah that is so hard to react to though...

 

[Glass Sword]

Question 1 answer: well you can, but if your too far away they can jump out of it since you got to a tiny dash before you do it again. So far away you are basically forced to check them with b2 until they respect that option. Close up go for it d4 to your hearts content. If the block it they can counter attack or jump. You can cancel a blocked d4 into smoke bomb as another mixup if you know they will block it.

 

[RYX]

yeah that is so hard to react to though...

It doesn't work on paper but I think you can throw him since Smoke Away has a 6 frame start-up exclusing throws and certain attacks.

We should make a thread to document which attacks beat Smoke Towards/Away if there isn't already one

 

[Mothmonsterman0]

I for one love D4 pressure. it's a great way to get someone to jump or block low <3

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Question 1 answer: well you can, but if your too far away they can jump out of it since you got to a tiny dash before you do it again. So far away you are basically forced to check them with b2 until they respect that option. Close up go for it d4 to your hearts content. If the block it they can counter attack or jump. You can cancel a blocked d4 into smoke bomb as another mixup if you know they will block it.

You should be able to get a small dash off in game, they could armor but that would probably be a really desperate player.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

I've done low poke ex smoke away and reg smoke away. Sometimes it works and sometimes I'll get ex frozen or red kicked or wtv. Situational for me but I'm a smoke noob.

 

[FrothyOmen]

smoke's EX smoke towards/away becomes invincible on the 6th frame. So, you have to use that to get out of Cage pressure if you don't want to commit to a shake. It's the only safe thing you have, and that's assuming you just-frame it to begin with. You can poke and cancel into EX smoke away too

 

[RiBBz22]

There seems to be a debate in the community about smoke. i don't want to talk about if people are up playing or downplaying or whatever, and i don't want to blow anybody up. I just want to know a couple things about what the community as a whole thinks and what smoke players think.

1. What is stopping from smoke from using d4 over and over again? Everybody knows smokes b2 is a very scary overhead leading to full combo and a possible 100 percent reset. Would that not make opponents stand up and allow smoke players to just d4 until opponents finally crouch block? This would make his offense very good in theory.

2. Escape options- say smoke is being pressured by cage. is a low poke into smoke away a viable escape? What about ex smoke away? I mean its not safe armor or whatever but it should work.

Once again, this thread is not about tier list position or down playing. Just things that people are talking about and need to be discussed imo
i could have posted this in the questions thread but i feel like more of the community will get involved this way.

luls, don't worry about blowing up any Smoke player for downplaying because you are just going to make it obvious that you don't really understand the character. Most downplaying is just to get a rise out of people anyways.

D3 smoke away is the best no meter tool to get out of general Cage pressure. The problem is after a nut punch and 11F1 followup Cage is at +3 on block, has a 9 frame knee that leads into more pressure so really the safest way to get out of pressure there is burning a bar for ex shake and spacing yourself out again. Not having armor hurts him in this MU for sure.

I main both characters (I play Smoke much more) and I feel the MU is Cage favor 6-4. Basically Smoke struggles against rushdown, which is his biggest weakness.

Regarding the d4 question, obviously doing something over and over again is not a viable strategy in this game, nor any game. Being predictable like that is going to get you killed so I am not even going to go to into that. The b2 only has to be respected on hit. A lot of good players I play against online quickly learn to just fuzzy guard d4 in preparation for it and are able to jump out or pressure on reads. As always it becomes a mind game because I can cancel into Smoke bomb if they stay grounded (if they jump/crossover they get a free JIP combo).

Honestly, I think he has one of the better d4's in the game solely because of b2, and if Smoke didn't have the b2 his d4 would probably be average to below average. If Smoke had more advantage on the d4, it would open up a lot more options aside from B2 to be able to pressure...but that doesn't really matter because Smoke wasn't designed to be played that way so it is what it is.

 

[FrothyOmen]

I've said it a million times, if smokes d4 was +16 on hit I would never complain about this character ever again lol he would be so ridiculous then

 

[Faded Dreams V]

There seems to be a debate in the community about smoke. i don't want to talk about if people are up playing or downplaying or whatever, and i don't want to blow anybody up. I just want to know a couple things about what the community as a whole thinks and what smoke players think.

1. What is stopping from smoke from using d4 over and over again? Everybody knows smokes b2 is a very scary overhead leading to full combo and a possible 100 percent reset. Would that not make opponents stand up and allow smoke players to just d4 until opponents finally crouch block? This would make his offense very good in theory.

2. Escape options- say smoke is being pressured by cage. is a low poke into smoke away a viable escape? What about ex smoke away? I mean its not safe armor or whatever but it should work.

Once again, this thread is not about tier list position or down playing. Just things that people are talking about and need to be discussed imo
i could have posted this in the questions thread but i feel like more of the community will get involved this way.

1. Using d4 multiple times to bait out a crouch is just as much of a guessing game for Smoke because he won't be able to B2 the second the opponent crouches unless he has gdlk reactions. A lot of Smokes use d4 a fixed number of times, and then throw in their b23 in anticipation. It's better to just d4 into grabs, which I don't see very often. This conditions them to tech, and when they do, they'll be open for the b2. There are other options after d4 as well besides spamming them. lol.

2. Sometimes those are viable options. But if the Cage makes good reads, Smoke is still going to get anally raped.

 

[smokey]

Cage is anti smoke. Doesn't need meter so can always break. If cage doesn't duck you need to land like 10 throws or like 50 D4's before cage dies, all while moving back towards the corner.

Smoke has a shit time in this match, its winnable if both players are human and the smoke player can force and capitalise on cages mistakes.

If Cage plays like a robot and never ducks or does anything risky, hes gonna get in and kill smoke, and hes gonna have a breaker, 50 D4's shouldnt condition anyone to duck into 100% combos.

 

[RiBBz22]

Cage is anti smoke. Doesn't need meter so can always break. If cage doesn't duck you need to land like 10 throws or like 50 D4's before cage dies, all while moving back towards the corner.

Smoke has a shit time in this match, its winnable if both players are human and the smoke player can force and capitalise on cages mistakes.

If Cage plays like a robot and never ducks or does anything risky, hes gonna get in and kill smoke, and hes gonna have a breaker, 50 D4's shouldnt condition anyone to duck into 100% combos.

The only advantage Cage has in this MU is his pressure tbh, but it is a big enough advantage to shift the overall MU in his favor. Smoke players can definitely make it annoying for Cage to get in on him though for sure.

 

[RiBBz22]

1. Using d4 multiple times to bait out a crouch is just as much of a guessing game for Smoke because he won't be able to B2 the second the opponent crouches unless he has gdlk reactions. A lot of Smokes use d4 a fixed number of times, and then throw in their b23 in anticipation. It's better to just d4 into grabs, which I don't see very often. This conditions them to tech, and when they do, they'll be open for the b2. There are other options after d4 as well besides spamming them. lol.

2. Sometimes those are viable options. But if the Cage makes good reads, Smoke is still going to get anally raped.

Yep, d4 on hit into throw is good. A lot of the time what I go for in a match depends on my opponents meter and other situational things. If I know my opponent won't be able to build a breaker during a combo I will most likely almost always go for the d4 > b2 option to try to turn it into a big boy combo. Early on in a match I will probably d4 and d3 into throw a bit more.

 

[smokey]

The only advantage Cage has in this MU is his pressure tbh, but it is a big enough advantage to shift the overall MU in his favor. Smoke players can definitely make it annoying for Cage to get in on him though for sure.

His advantage being his pressure, which is hard to escape at the best of times (with the best of characters should i say), really capitalises on smokes disadvantage as a character who struggles significantly under pressure.

Its hard to keep cage out, as long as hes got good dash blocking he can disregard smoke bombs because they dont occupy space like a gas ball or fan would, they dont stop him coming in.

D4 and B2 are going to be all that you can really use to keep him off you, and unless cage ducks, which he shouldnt, hes not really getting hurt. If your D4 hits and you take the advantage to do a string then you either end in smoke away and get cornered, or you can end yourself on neutral at best, inside cages 11/f3 range and you get pressured.

Once cage gets in you have to spend meter and take risks to get out again, but this time you have a life disadvantage so cage doesnt even have to chase.

Edit: Like i said before, throws are good, but you need a few to make a dent, and you dont really get much from them outside the damage and maybe a position reversal.

 

[RiBBz22]

His advantage being his pressure, which is hard to escape at the best of times (with the best of characters should i say), really capitalises on smokes disadvantage as a character who struggles significantly under pressure.

Its hard to keep cage out, as long as hes got good dash blocking he can disregard smoke bombs because they dont occupy space like a gas ball or fan would, they dont stop him coming in.

D4 and B2 are going to be all that you can really use to keep him off you, and unless cage ducks, which he shouldnt, hes not really getting hurt. If your D4 hits and you take the advantage to do a string then you either end in smoke away and get cornered, or you can end yourself on neutral at best, inside cages 11/f3 range and you get pressured.

Once cage gets in you have to spend meter and take risks to get out again, but this time you have a life disadvantage so cage doesnt even have to chase.

Edit: Like i said before, throws are good, but you need a few to make a dent, and you dont really get much from them outside the damage and maybe a position reversal.

I would say it is harder for Cage to get in against Smoke as opposed to Smoke keeping Cage out. Once he is in it is really bad, since Cage has nothing to really fear up close to be honest as Smoke's options to get out to little to no damage. With that being said, you are right, it is still not terribly tough for Cage to get in since Smoke cannot zone at all.

 

[Matix218]

Cage is anti smoke. Doesn't need meter so can always break. If cage doesn't duck you need to land like 10 throws or like 50 D4's before cage dies, all while moving back towards the corner.

Smoke has a shit time in this match, its winnable if both players are human and the smoke player can force and capitalise on cages mistakes.

If Cage plays like a robot and never ducks or does anything risky, hes gonna get in and kill smoke, and hes gonna have a breaker, 50 D4's shouldnt condition anyone to duck into 100% combos.

Oh man do I agree with this post. Smoke v Cage is the match I play the most (I am a smoke main and my brother mains cage). As my brother has gotten smarter in this matchup from playing it so much it has become very difficult. Essentially he learned to eat d4 and not use the d4 threat as a reason to ever block low. I now have to rely on d4 and throws for the bulk of my damage. It sucks LOL. Sure if he makes a mistake and eats a b23 or gets ani aired (which is rare cause he learned not to jump or cross over because I will blow it up) I can take massive damage with my reset but it seems like he ALWAYS has meter to break because he has no reason to spend meter otherwise in this match :/ This is a very difficult match for smoke when both players know the matchup really well. I am not downplaying smoke by saying this, it is just that I have a ton of experience in this matchup and I actually have an easier time with my alt. (Ermac) than I do with smoke against Cage. I have never lost to a cage in tournament though because I am so used to this match lol. This is a match where having smoke bomb do slight chip or having any armor would be such a treat

 

[smokey]

snip

Im a bit of a fiend because i lost to Cage at the last tourny i went to like last year, though i hadnt had the experience beforehand. With consistent resets i was getting some blow-up rounds, but without the openings to do damage its just fighting a losing battle trying to run away and keep cage off you, because he can get no problem without taking risks.

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

1. What is stopping from smoke from using d4 over and over again? Everybody knows smokes b2 is a very scary overhead leading to full combo and a possible 100 percent reset. Would that not make opponents stand up and allow smoke players to just d4 until opponents finally crouch block? This would make his offense very good in theory.

2. Escape options- say smoke is being pressured by cage. is a low poke into smoke away a viable escape? What about ex smoke away? I mean its not safe armor or whatever but it should work.

1. If you D4 too much I will wiff punish the shit out of it... bad day for smoke (I'm a Cage main)
2. If you D3~Smoke Away too much (i.e more than once) I can shadow kick you 99% of the time out of your smoke away.

Edit: Totally forgot about this but EX NUTPUNCH for Cage if a Smoke is getting poke happy and an armored combo starter for Kenshi/Kabal/Sonya

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

I would say it is harder for Cage to get in against Smoke as opposed to Smoke keeping Cage out. Once he is in it is really bad, since Cage has nothing to really fear up close to be honest as Smoke's options to get out to little to no damage. With that being said, you are right, it is still not terribly tough for Cage to get in since Smoke cannot zone at all.

Dash, Block, Dash, Block, Dash, Block, Dash, Block, Oh hi Mr. Corner! Here Smoke, let me introduce you to my knee :/ Smoke is stupidly easy to get in on.... the only time he isn't is if you are impatient as fuck and jump.... Shit Cage doesn't even need to chase a Smoke down... Cage can get the life lead and laugh as Smoke sits full screen

 

[RiBBz22]

Dash, Block, Dash, Block, Dash, Block, Dash, Block, Oh hi Mr. Corner! Here Smoke, let me introduce you to my knee :/ Smoke is stupidly easy to get in on.... the only time he isn't is if you are impatient as fuck and jump....

Let's play if you have PS3 and we can see if you get frustrated getting in or not. I understand it is not bad, but it is not stupidly easy.

 

[smokey]

Let's play if you have PS3 and we can see if you get frustrated getting in or not. I understand it is not bad, but it is not stupidly easy.

Do you have a way of recording so can see how you handle keeping cage out? Or could you give me your views on how to keep cage at bay, feel free to go as in depth as you feel necessary, this matchup has been discussed loads of times now and it all comes down to some people saying smokes free to cage (me), and others saying cage cant get in as easily(you), would be good to hear from your side of it!