Small improvements - Making f1 a mid and f2 an overhead?

[Commiekaze]

Do you think something subtle like making her f1 a mid and her f2 an overhead would make her much better? Slightly better? Maybe it wouldn't make a difference? Make her worse somehow?

The f13 string is my favourite string but it being high screws me up quite a bit. It doesn't have the best startup (15f) so I don't think that changing it to a mid would break it but this would be a great improvement. It would be our main medium-range advancing string which you can do knowing that is is both safe and can't be ducked.

Just based on animation, I don't see why f2 can't be an overhead. It would give us a long-range, unsafe, slow normal which still isn't all that amazing since even the safe f224 can be poked.

I've been using a lot of d3 and d4 pokes into db4 amp, stopped using d2 entirely because the hitbox is the width of a pencil and have tried to incorporate more d1 pokes into 21222 or 121 depending on what comes out. It all has made the experience better. Based from basically nothing but losing with her (but still enjoying the weirdo character), I feel like for me personally, these 2 changes with f1 and f2 would make a world of difference.

 

[xenogorgeous]

yep, Devora'h needs a optimal and decent overhead in her moveset .... agreed !

 

[Marinjuana]

Those would be dramatic buffs tbh

 

[Commiekaze]

Those would be dramatic buffs tbh

So do you think it would be too much? Dramatic in D'vorah's case may be appropriate.

 

[Marinjuana]

So do you think it would be too much? Dramatic in D'vorah's case may be appropriate.

Yes. The character is designed to not have a strong mid to pressure with, giving her a F1 mid gives her a hit confirmable mid string. So now she has one of the better mid strings in the game on top of possibly being the only character with a practically safe mid special in ovipositor amp.

And then F2 overhead, like dude they nerfed her F2 overhead in MKX. That was MKX! Seriously though, they didn't even let her have that in MKX, the game with 50/50s into 40% combos. One thing about D'vorah that is objectively strong is her setups, she can put out setups where you may have to hold two 50/50s from her F4/B3. Ones where she can combo off of her low attack. But if you made her F2 an overhead, she would setups that pretty much force a 50/50 where she could hit confirm into a full combo and still be safe.

 

[Commiekaze]

Yes. The character is designed to not have a strong mid to pressure with, giving her a F1 mid gives her a hit confirmable mid string. So now she has one of the better mid strings in the game on top of possibly being the only character with a practically safe mid special in ovipositor amp.

And then F2 overhead, like dude they nerfed her F2 overhead in MKX. That was MKX! Seriously though, they didn't even let her have that in MKX, the game with 50/50s into 40% combos. One thing about D'vorah that is objectively strong is her setups, she can put out setups where you may have to hold two 50/50s from her F4/B3. Ones where she can combo off of her low attack. But if you made her F2 an overhead, she would setups that pretty much force a 50/50 where she could hit confirm into a full combo and still be safe.

Fair points. So what about one or the other? They can leave f2 alone and make f1 mid? Or leave f1 as is and make f2 an overhead? Just playing around with her as much as I have makes me think that whatever they do with her would have to somehow have to involve f1 or f2 and their associated strings.

I am sure everyone agrees that she needs some work. But clearly, NRS does not want to just revert her to her pre-patch state. She doesn't have many strings and I think her specials are fine in Buzzed. As you said, db4 is good. Strep setups are also good with some effort as we've seen. The air bf1 is nice with some practice. Amped ground swarm is great and even putting down regular ground swarm as a meaty setup can work I am sure. Infect is kinda pants but that's ok, at least it's a restand.

Based on your description, maybe f2 would be too strong along with f1 being a mid. But just f1 being a mid would be more balanced. Like, if they JUST change that and make some of her strings hit more reliably, that alone wouldn't break her, would it?

 

[Second Saint]

F2 overhead would be ridiculous. Way too much. I think f1 as a mid would also be too much as the range on it is insane for a mid.

If any string should be made a mid, it's 21222, imo. D'vorah's overhead low mixups aren't particularly impressive or good, even with setups, imo. But her strike throw game is a couple of changes away from being pretty great. If 21~amp db1 linked and 2 was a mid, she'd be an entirely diffferent character.

I understand that her design as it is now is that she doesn't have a good mid to pressure with but this is just not an effective build for a rushdown character at all. Her and Kotal have this exact same issue and are widely considered bottom tier for this exact reason. It's a mistake that I believe should be rectified.

 

[Commiekaze]

If any string should be made a mid, it's 21222, imo. D'vorah's overhead low mixups aren't particularly impressive or good, even with setups, imo. But her strike throw game is a couple of changes away from being pretty great. If 21~amp db1 linked and 2 was a mid, she'd be an entirely diffferent character.

This is pretty good, I could get behind this. It would give me more reason to use this string and the linking into special is a good point. I would be content with this and making f13 (the kick portion for 3) more consistent on juggle.

Wasn't there a string people kept complaining about her that doesn't seem to connect properly? I can't find the posts but I swear there was something people said didn't connect properly or there was an issue with a hurtbox.

 

[Second Saint]

This is pretty good, I could get behind this. It would give me more reason to use this string and the linking into special is a good point. I would be content with this and making f13 (the kick portion for 3) more consistent on juggle.

Wasn't there a string people kept complaining about her that doesn't seem to connect properly? I can't find the posts but I swear there was something people said didn't connect properly or there was an issue with a hurtbox.

Probably f22d1+3. The overhead that whiffs on half the cast when they duck.

 

[Commiekaze]

Probably f22d1+3. The overhead that whiffs on half the cast when they duck.

Oh yeah! I think you are right. Also, how are you supposed to do the krushing blows on these? One of the f22 strings has a KB requirement where the first 2 hits have to miss but the 3rd doesn't come out unless you hit the opponent. I am probably missing something but found it pretty funny. I just d3/d4 xx db3 everyone to death, fuck it.

 

[Second Saint]

Oh yeah! I think you are right. Also, how are you supposed to do the krushing blows on these? One of the f22 strings has a KB requirement where the first 2 hits have to miss but the 3rd doesn't come out unless you hit the opponent. I am probably missing something but found it pretty funny. I just d3/d4 xx db3 everyone to death, fuck it.

If people are flawless blocking f22d1+3, then you can do the other ender it will catch them, theoretically. I've never met someone with enough matchup experience to do that. Before the day 1 nerf, you could've done it just by staggering f22. Now that's a ridiculous risk.

 

[Eldagrin]

If she needs anything it’s to make her frame data not so terrible. In the day 1 patch they added like 5 or more frames of start up to several of her moves and made most of her moves very unsafe. She just needs some of her speed back so she can actually play footsies better.

 

[Whackojack]

I think something that would help a lot would be making 3 either a mid or (possibly too strong) an overhead. This would help her win poke wars and give her an option up close. I think as an overhead it would give no reason to ever use f4.

Alternatively making her standing 4 a mid or a faster startup would also solve a lot of problems.

I don't want her to be OP, but I would like a character that has a chance. With characters like sonya who have zoning and 50/50 mixups where both can lead to a combo (low requires meter) I don't see why dvorah couldn't be compensated for all her weaknesses.

 

[Commiekaze]

Honestly, after yesterday's Sonic stream, I am convinced she is not nearly as bad as people say and with some faster normals (f1) and maybe one more normal/string starter converted to a mid, she would be great.

 

[UghGetOuttaHere]

Honestly if 1,2 linked into puddle and she got a little more damage id be happy.

 

[xenogorgeous]

Honestly, after yesterday's Sonic stream, I am convinced she is not nearly as bad as people say and with some faster normals (f1) and maybe one more normal/string starter converted to a mid, she would be great.

yep, Sonic did great with her, especially against HoneyBee, what is hilarious and ironic at the same time, hahaha

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I main Dvorah and this would be way too much. She'd be ridiculous. She's not supposed be played like that. People can low profile Dvorah and that's okay. Every character should have a vulnerability. If you wanna make F1 faster, okay. But not mid. If anything is gonna be a mid, it should be standing 2. That would give her the ability to use 2 1 as a response to blocked strings or pokes. But don't let 2 1 connect to ex puddle or widow's kiss. That way she can only get a little bit from it. She's not a character that's supposed to get big damage off of close range pressure situations. (or maybe standing as a mid. MAYBE)

As for F2 as an overhead, that would be insane. And it would turn her into a stupid 50/50 character. I really hope they don't ever do this.

• Dvorah needs hitbox fixes.
• She needs 1 2 to connect to ex puddle.
• She needs the Buzzed unique strings to be universal to all variations.
• She needs a liiiiiiiiittle less recovery on air fireflies.
• She needs her overhead to be less negative on block. Still full combo punishable, but not minus 16. That way certain spacing can make it kiiiinda safe against some characters. Same with her sweep. Make it -12 and not -20.
• Maybe a 5% damage increase to the ex puddle so that she gets a little more combo damage for a bar of meter.
• POSSIBLY a new Krushing Blow. Like maybe F4's in a row. Or second time that only the second half of 21222 hits. Something you gotta work for.

Dvorah is a crazy unconventional character. She doesn't really play MK11. She plays the Dvorah game. We all agree that she's got some significant issues, but if you give her a half screen overhead starter, or a 1/3 screen advancing safe mid string that's hit confirmable into combo, she's gonna become dumb and I don't want that to happen.

(ADDED IN EDIT)

- Very Far Puddle needs to hit FULLSCREEN. As does Far Air Firefly.

 

[DeftMonk]

That f13 has a wonky hitbox imo. You can pros dropping juggles left and right. That needs to be addressed.

 

[Commiekaze]

I main Dvorah and this would be way too much. She'd be ridiculous. She's not supposed be played like that. People can low profile Dvorah and that's okay. Every character should have a vulnerability. If you wanna make F1 faster, okay. But not mid. If anything is gonna be a mid, it should be standing 2. That would give her the ability to use 2 1 as a response to blocked strings or pokes. But don't let 2 1 connect to ex puddle or widow's kiss. That way she can only get a little bit from it. She's not a character that's supposed to get big damage off of close range pressure situations. (or maybe standing as a mid. MAYBE)

As for F2 as an overhead, that would be insane. And it would turn her into a stupid 50/50 character. I really hope they don't ever do this.

• Dvorah needs hitbox fixes.
• She needs 1 2 to connect to ex puddle.
• She needs the Buzzed unique strings to be universal to all variations.
• She needs a liiiiiiiiittle less recovery on air fireflies.
• She needs her overhead to be less negative on block. Still full combo punishable, but not minus 16. That way certain spacing can make it kiiiinda safe against some characters. Same with her sweep. Make it -12 and not -20.
• Maybe a 5% damage increase to the ex puddle so that she gets a little more combo damage for a bar of meter.
• POSSIBLY a new Krushing Blow. Like maybe F4's in a row. Or second time that only the second half of 21222 hits. Something you gotta work for.

Dvorah is a crazy unconventional character. She doesn't really play MK11. She plays the Dvorah game. We all agree that she's got some significant issues, but if you give her a half screen overhead starter, or a 1/3 screen advancing safe mid string that's hit confirmable into combo, she's gonna become dumb and I don't want that to happen.

(ADDED IN EDIT)

- Very Far Puddle needs to hit FULLSCREEN. As does Far Air Firefly.

Fair assessment. I would be content with these changes and some KB tweaks like you said. Maybe make the other KBs less demanding.

 

[jcbowie]

yep, Sonic did great with her, especially against HoneyBee, what is hilarious and ironic at the same time, hahaha

Honestly that doesn't mean very much when you're evaluating a character. "The best player did well with her" doesn't mean she's not still hot garbage, just means he's really good.

I don't care as much about changing the properties of her moves or tweaking her frames. I honestly just want her setups to be more useful. She needs like one or two of her moves to give her Cyrax-style bomb popups, right now getting around 10% for meterless setups makes them almost not worth it. If the df3 setups were at all threatening out of her bnb then maybe people wouldn't just feel free to poke away with no risk.

 

[x TeeJay o]

Yeaaaaa NO lmao. There is no way this is ever happening. Debbie doesn't need too many buffs. Just make F1 11f , F2 15f again, and decrease the scaling from her bugs hitting. Currently if you do a 2 bar setup you get like almost no damage. Either do that or if she stays the same & be incredibly hard to use, make the rewards worth it. Not buff her into oblivion lol

 

[Deleted member 5032]

I just wish a few more strings could be canceled into Amp db1 for combos. Otherwise, these proposed changes are pretty extreme. F1 mid? f2 overhead? Holy shit...

 

[jcbowie]

Yeaaaaa NO lmao. There is no way this is ever happening. Debbie doesn't need too many buffs. Just make F1 11f , F2 15f again, and decrease the scaling from her bugs hitting. Currently if you do a 2 bar setup you get like almost no damage. Either do that or if she stays the same & be incredibly hard to use, make the rewards worth it. Not buff her into oblivion lol

I'd personally rather have her f2,2 be safer rather than have faster startup. I think it's reasonable to reduce the block disadvantage and keep it slow, right?

Also, people don't talk about it as much, but her KB requirements are ass. I have never once gotten the KB's off of her f2,2 followups, I dunno if there's a strategy to get them more often but it bothers me that they're so inaccessible. Feels like they should be easier to get.