Remaking Erron

[Chernyy Volk]

So, I made a video awhile back on reworking Kano where basically, my thesis was that Manhandled should be universal, which would make him a character with more depth, more options and a Kano loyalist would get a lot farther because of what those things would open up.

I think Erron is also in need of a similar rework, but much more in depth. I think a lot of people are bored of doing scud shot pressure because it's his best aspect and his other two variations feel sorely lacking in comparison. This is due to a combination of 52 Kard Pickup just straight up has his absolute best tools, but also that his other two variations obviously had no gameplay synergy ideas behind them. At the same time, Erron is kind of lacking in KB's that allow him as a base character to thrive. This is kind of long, but hopefully I make a good case.

So, BEFORE I START, I'm just gonna lay it out. Errons base kit AND variations need a rework. This is what I think should happen. I've labbed a lot of shit for a couple months now.

1: Acid pour is universal
2: Outworld Gunslinger is universal
3: The nonsensical move conflict between acid pour and cattle toss is removed. They aren't even the same input.

Buffs

1: Acid Pour is 2-3 frames faster so it combos off 111

Variation changes:

1: Scud Shot is removed, 52 Kard Pickup now only has enhanced rifle stance, U2 and D3 damage buffed. It's now a three slot move.
2: Barking Irons now only has Cattle Toss and Snake Slide Cancel
3: Locked And Loaded is now Netherbeast Trap and TNT.

So how does this effect his character? Well, let's address that.

1: He has the ghetto zoning from Outworld Gunslinger to make all three of his variations better in neutral.
2: A universal solid unbreakable damage option with anything into acid pour.
3: Acid pour KB is now universal, buffing his other two variations.
4: B2U4222 in Outworld Gunslinger gives you a free TNT as well as a safe Netherbeast trap setup.
5: Barking Irons becomes terrifying. F3~Cattle Toss and F3~Acid pour as far as I can tell is an unseeable mixup. This makes the post MB slide game terrifying.

There's some other shit, but oddly enough, by condensing more shit into his base kit and re-arranging variations, he becomes a much more diverse character that's strong, yet does have to take risks. Scud Shot can be put on a Gunslinger variation later, which is in the presets. Up Peacemarker, Peacemaker and Scud Shot.

What do you guys think?

 

[DeftMonk]

Not gonna lie when I saw this topic and who posted it I purely opened it to see if cherney is trying to say erron black sucks.

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

Isn't this the guy that rage quits all the time

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Isn't this the guy that rage quits all the time

Yes.

 

[haketh]

Isn't this the guy that rage quits all the time

Please actually contribute something to the actual conversation. People talk about why this website isn’t as good as it used to be & this is why.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Please actually contribute something to the actual conversation. People talk about why this website isn’t as good as it used to be & this is why.

Typical NRS buffoonery.

 

[DarksydeDash]

Aren't you the guy that tried to sell frame data before the game's launch? LMFAO Erron is fine.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Aren't you the guy that tried to sell frame data before the game's launch? LMFAO Erron is fine.

I'm actually trying to help this game. It's dying hella fast.

 

[Evantabes]

I don't think your proposed changes solve what you say you want to do. I'll go one by one with what I agree and disagree with.

Spoiler: Long ass post

I think a lot of people are bored of doing scud shot pressure because it's his best aspect and his other two variations feel sorely lacking in comparison. This is due to a combination of 52 Kard Pickup just straight up has his absolute best tools, but also that his other two variations obviously had no gameplay synergy ideas behind them.

Agree and disagree. I agree that Scud Shot and Enhanced LnL are his best tools. But I disagree with the idea that these are his best tools because they're powerful. These are his best tools because these are what actually let him play the game. Of course Scud Shot is great in some matchups, but having Scud is not what makes 52 Kard the best. 52 Kard is his best variation because it's the only one that can do two things 1. Get meaningful conversions (due to Enhanced LnL U2) and 2. Use B222 safely. Barking Irons can only do the latter and Locked and Loaded can do neither. If they buffed regular LnL (like I thought they were going to) and every variation could cancel LnL U2, then Barking Irons would be his best variation without having Scud Shot or Enhanced LnL. The rest of Enhanced LnL can suck it, only triple low shot has marginal use when trying to close out a round.

As for the synergy for the other variations, it's half and half. Barking Irons is fine because it has legit mix ups (though dynamite does not contribute to this) and can melt a life bar if he gets in, but has more trouble controlling space. It's viable right now because being able to use B222 is more important than conversions but has a borderline useless move in dynamite (it took a huge hit with the FB nerf), but I think keeping dynamite is fine if it got its startup frames reduced. Biggest problem with Barking Irons (and why 52 Kard edges it out slightly) is that its way of making B222 safe takes defensive meter and not offensive meter (like 52). This means he always gets less access to defensive options (mainly Breakaway) if you want to do the shit that makes the variation good. I like the idea of Locked and Loaded, but in reality it's trash right now. I think either trap should not go away on hit or it needs to be way faster. Locked and Loaded will not be viable until it has a way to use B222 without dying. Easiest way to do this I think is to make trap only take 1 slot and give it Down Peacemaker or make Acid Pour safe. Also why trap takes 2 slots is baffling to me. Agree on this one lacking synergy.

1: Acid pour is universal

This is dangerous imo assuming he keeps the KB for every variation. This would be a mad buff to his corner game and he would be able to pretty much two touch you in the corner, as any hit with a puddle down is doing 380+ damage. Obviously I would love this, but this actually might be stupid. I say disagree.

2: Outworld Gunslinger is universal

I guess Outworld Gunslinger is useless enough that it's fine for base moves and I don't think this would change much. Barring any frame buffs or property changes (ie making F21 cancellable again), the only usable thing in Outworld Gunslinger is 32 and even that is just whatever. I guess it would be nice to be able to low profile jumps with D+F3 in every variation. Not sure if I agree but it doesn't hurt.

3: The nonsensical move conflict between acid pour and cattle toss is removed. They aren't even the same input.

Yup. Not sure why this is in the game.

1: Acid Pour is 2-3 frames faster so it combos off 111

I don't see any value in 111 right now. Sure you can have this but unless st.1 becomes 7 frames, I think 111 is pretty worthless.

1: Scud Shot is removed, 52 Kard Pickup now only has enhanced rifle stance, U2 and D3 damage buffed. It's now a three slot move.

Unless you want to make the variation useless, this is hard disagree. Same reasoning as to why Locked and Loaded is bad right now. In a game where your character lives and dies by how good their mid is, Enhanced LnL is not good enough to make up for the loss of B222. Unless they changed B222 xx Put Away Rifle being safe, then I could get on board. But any variation needs to be able to use B222 to be viable.

2: Barking Irons now only has Cattle Toss and Snake Slide Cancel

Haha it's funny that you put this because sometimes I do feel like having dynamite is a nerf. It does kinda suck that the only way to get puddles down in Barking Irons is amp Slide, but because command grab throws them in the opposite direction, you actually don't end up throwing them onto a puddle a lot anyway. The one situation I would say I need puddle over dynamite is in the corner when you land a B222 on an airborne opponent. You can't just lay down a puddle so you have to do B222 xx Put Away Rifle just so you don't get punished. I could take this or leave it (but only because I love the dynamite brutal)

3: Locked And Loaded is now Netherbeast Trap and TNT.

This would certainly seem to have more synergy for a trap based character, but unless both moves get a massive frame buff then this variation would be horrible. No combos, no way to use B222, no viability.

1: He has the ghetto zoning from Outworld Gunslinger to make all three of his variations better in neutral.

Like I already said, I don't think anything in Outworld Gunslinger is meaningful enough besides maybe 32. The shots in B122 are highs and F21 is not cancellable. To call it even ghetto zoning is a bit of a stretch.

2: A universal solid unbreakable damage option with anything into acid pour.
3: Acid pour KB is now universal, buffing his other two variations.

I agree that he needs (well I would like) more Krushing Blows but again I don't know if this is the answer. Midscreen the Acid Pour KB isn't a big deal since it's kinda hard to hit them on the puddle but in the corner, this might be busted. More Krushing Blows would be nice, but I think this is too easy and too good.

4: B2U4222 in Outworld Gunslinger gives you a free TNT as well as a safe Netherbeast trap setup.

I'm not sure what is happening here? B2U4222 is not cancellable, unless you're suggesting to increase the hitstun to like 60 frames. Unless you meant just B2U4 xx Dynamite or B2U4 xx Trap should both be safe, in which case I agree.

5: Barking Irons becomes terrifying. F3~Cattle Toss and F3~Acid pour as far as I can tell is an unseeable mixup. This makes the post MB slide game terrifying.

I think you just made this up considering this is not even testable right now because of the conflict. Right now command grab is 11f and Acid Pour is 17, meaning this is probably OSable (though maybe not if they buffed Acid Pour speed like you suggest). Actually second hit of F32 is 16 frames and you can OS that and F3 xx command grab so unless they speed up Acid Pour this isn't real. Even then both options are full combo punishable so idk if the risk reward is really in Erron's favor after you burn the Acid Pour KB. But I guess it only has to work once.

There's some other shit, but oddly enough, by condensing more shit into his base kit and re-arranging variations, he becomes a much more diverse character that's strong, yet does have to take risks. Scud Shot can be put on a Gunslinger variation later, which is in the presets. Up Peacemarker, Peacemaker and Scud Shot.

Idk if you ever tried the Peacemaker moves but they're total dogshit right now. Most value they have is Down Peacemaker letting you be safe after B222 but if this variation already has Scud Shot then this is redundant. I guess you can save the meter but Scud Shot enables mind games for more pressure etc. Up Peacemaker is absolutely worthless. Doesn't kombo from anything besides B2U4 but that already gives you a combo AND the link is easier without Up Peacemaker. I would never play this variation.

TL;DR His variations are already pretty different in playstyle. All of them could be viable with a few tweaks imo. Your changes either don't impact the character enough or way too much, both positive and negatively. Barking Irons would be the only viable variation if they did these.

 

[XxSYNDROISxX]

Please actually contribute something to the actual conversation. People talk about why this website isn’t as good as it used to be & this is why.

Wow dude chill out it was just a smart-ass comment

 

[GLoRToR]

I don't think your proposed changes solve what you say you want to do. I'll go one by one with what I agree and disagree with.

Spoiler: Long ass post

Agree and disagree. I agree that Scud Shot and Enhanced LnL are his best tools. But I disagree with the idea that these are his best tools because they're powerful. These are his best tools because these are what actually let him play the game. Of course Scud Shot is great in some matchups, but having Scud is not what makes 52 Kard the best. 52 Kard is his best variation because it's the only one that can do two things 1. Get meaningful conversions (due to Enhanced LnL U2) and 2. Use B222 safely. Barking Irons can only do the latter and Locked and Loaded can do neither. If they buffed regular LnL (like I thought they were going to) and every variation could cancel LnL U2, then Barking Irons would be his best variation without having Scud Shot or Enhanced LnL. The rest of Enhanced LnL can suck it, only triple low shot has marginal use when trying to close out a round.

As for the synergy for the other variations, it's half and half. Barking Irons is fine because it has legit mix ups (though dynamite does not contribute to this) and can melt a life bar if he gets in, but has more trouble controlling space. It's viable right now because being able to use B222 is more important than conversions but has a borderline useless move in dynamite (it took a huge hit with the FB nerf), but I think keeping dynamite is fine if it got its startup frames reduced. Biggest problem with Barking Irons (and why 52 Kard edges it out slightly) is that its way of making B222 safe takes defensive meter and not offensive meter (like 52). This means he always gets less access to defensive options (mainly Breakaway) if you want to do the shit that makes the variation good. I like the idea of Locked and Loaded, but in reality it's trash right now. I think either trap should not go away on hit or it needs to be way faster. Locked and Loaded will not be viable until it has a way to use B222 without dying. Easiest way to do this I think is to make trap only take 1 slot and give it Down Peacemaker or make Acid Pour safe. Also why trap takes 2 slots is baffling to me. Agree on this one lacking synergy.


This is dangerous imo assuming he keeps the KB for every variation. This would be a mad buff to his corner game and he would be able to pretty much two touch you in the corner, as any hit with a puddle down is doing 380+ damage. Obviously I would love this, but this actually might be stupid. I say disagree.


I guess Outworld Gunslinger is useless enough that it's fine for base moves and I don't think this would change much. Barring any frame buffs or property changes (ie making F21 cancellable again), the only usable thing in Outworld Gunslinger is 32 and even that is just whatever. I guess it would be nice to be able to low profile jumps with D+F3 in every variation. Not sure if I agree but it doesn't hurt.


Yup. Not sure why this is in the game.


I don't see any value in 111 right now. Sure you can have this but unless st.1 becomes 7 frames, I think 111 is pretty worthless.


Unless you want to make the variation useless, this is hard disagree. Same reasoning as to why Locked and Loaded is bad right now. In a game where your character lives and dies by how good their mid is, Enhanced LnL is not good enough to make up for the loss of B222. Unless they changed B222 xx Put Away Rifle being safe, then I could get on board. But any variation needs to be able to use B222 to be viable.


Haha it's funny that you put this because sometimes I do feel like having dynamite is a nerf. It does kinda suck that the only way to get puddles down in Barking Irons is amp Slide, but because command grab throws them in the opposite direction, you actually don't end up throwing them onto a puddle a lot anyway. The one situation I would say I need puddle over dynamite is in the corner when you land a B222 on an airborne opponent. You can't just lay down a puddle so you have to do B222 xx Put Away Rifle just so you don't get punished. I could take this or leave it (but only because I love the dynamite brutal)


This would certainly seem to have more synergy for a trap based character, but unless both moves get a massive frame buff then this variation would be horrible. No combos, no way to use B222, no viability.


Like I already said, I don't think anything in Outworld Gunslinger is meaningful enough besides maybe 32. The shots in B122 are highs and F21 is not cancellable. To call it even ghetto zoning is a bit of a stretch.


I agree that he needs (well I would like) more Krushing Blows but again I don't know if this is the answer. Midscreen the Acid Pour KB isn't a big deal since it's kinda hard to hit them on the puddle but in the corner, this might be busted. More Krushing Blows would be nice, but I think this is too easy and too good.


I'm not sure what is happening here? B2U4222 is not cancellable, unless you're suggesting to increase the hitstun to like 60 frames. Unless you meant just B2U4 xx Dynamite or B2U4 xx Trap should both be safe, in which case I agree.


I think you just made this up considering this is not even testable right now because of the conflict. Right now command grab is 11f and Acid Pour is 17, meaning this is probably OSable (though maybe not if they buffed Acid Pour speed like you suggest). Actually second hit of F32 is 16 frames and you can OS that and F3 xx command grab so unless they speed up Acid Pour this isn't real. Even then both options are full combo punishable so idk if the risk reward is really in Erron's favor after you burn the Acid Pour KB. But I guess it only has to work once.


Idk if you ever tried the Peacemaker moves but they're total dogshit right now. Most value they have is Down Peacemaker letting you be safe after B222 but if this variation already has Scud Shot then this is redundant. I guess you can save the meter but Scud Shot enables mind games for more pressure etc. Up Peacemaker is absolutely worthless. Doesn't kombo from anything besides B2U4 but that already gives you a combo AND the link is easier without Up Peacemaker. I would never play this variation.

TL;DR His variations are already pretty different in playstyle. All of them could be viable with a few tweaks imo. Your changes either don't impact the character enough or way too much, both positive and negatively. Barking Irons would be the only viable variation if they did these.

I know I play shit tier but Erron, especially his B2, feels really powerful to me. I don't know what makes people say he needs help, but it's likely the top tiers that need tweaks so they aren't so dominant rather than Erron?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'm actually trying to help this game. It's dying hella fast.

In what way is the game ‘dying’?

ECT was insane and had 200 people, including lots of newer challengers who scalped well known players.

Online participation Is stronger at this point than in previous games due to KL. There are also hype online events like the EFL series Destroyer is broadcasting every month with a lot of entrants.

Explain the logic behind this statement.

 

[DeftMonk]

In what way is the game ‘dying’?

ECT was insane and had 200 people, including lots of newer challengers who scalped well known players.

Online participation Is stronger at this point than in previous games due to KL. There are also hype online events like the EFL series Destroyer is broadcasting every month with a lot of entrants.

Explain the logic behind this statement.

The EFL is pretty damn hype not gonna lie. I think the contest release schedule is causing some players to feel as tho the game is not receiving development. It is, just at a slower pace. Hopefully we can keep this amount of stuff going on longer due to this tho. I’m assuming after kp1 there will be a big announcement (hopefully bigger than a fourth variation) that will bring a big surge of folks back as well.

 

[Evantabes]

I know I play shit tier but Erron, especially his B2, feels really powerful to me. I don't know what makes people say he needs help, but it's likely the top tiers that need tweaks so they aren't so dominant rather than Erron?

He's fine right now. I don't really think he's busted compared to the actually busted characters. Like I said, I would like (ie he doesn't need) probably 1 more good KB but other than that he's in a good spot.

As for B2, it's weird because it has a bunch of things going for it. The hitbox is great, airborne opponents rarely fall out of the whole string so it's less susceptible to jumps, and even it being a back input is good because you can do it faster out of a walk back. But at the end of the day, the value of B2 is completely dependent on his other moves. The fact that Locked and Loaded can't use B222 well because his moves don't allow it makes me want to say that B2 is bad in a vacuum. Though maybe this is just a problem with his base moves being not complimenting it at all.

 

[GLoRToR]

He's fine right now. I don't really think he's busted compared to the actually busted characters. Like I said, I would like (ie he doesn't need) probably 1 more good KB but other than that he's in a good spot.

As for B2, it's weird because it has a bunch of things going for it. The hitbox is great, airborne opponents rarely fall out of the whole string so it's less susceptible to jumps, and even it being a back input is good because you can do it faster out of a walk back. But at the end of the day, the value of B2 is completely dependent on his other moves. The fact that Locked and Loaded can't use B222 well because his moves don't allow it makes me want to say that B2 is bad in a vacuum. Though maybe this is just a problem with his base moves being not complimenting it at all.

Online b22 / b2slide is literal disease. Jade has no options other than block and guess wrong.

 

[Mikemetroid]

Hi everyone


Don't take advice from someone who does nothing but play online.

Thank u for coming to my te-tym talk.

 

[Neeko]

So, I made a video awhile back on reworking Kano where basically, my thesis was that Manhandled should be universal, which would make him a character with more depth, more options and a Kano loyalist would get a lot farther because of what those things would open up.

I think Erron is also in need of a similar rework, but much more in depth. I think a lot of people are bored of doing scud shot pressure because it's his best aspect and his other two variations feel sorely lacking in comparison. This is due to a combination of 52 Kard Pickup just straight up has his absolute best tools, but also that his other two variations obviously had no gameplay synergy ideas behind them. At the same time, Erron is kind of lacking in KB's that allow him as a base character to thrive. This is kind of long, but hopefully I make a good case.

So, BEFORE I START, I'm just gonna lay it out. Errons base kit AND variations need a rework. This is what I think should happen. I've labbed a lot of shit for a couple months now.

1: Acid pour is universal
2: Outworld Gunslinger is universal
3: The nonsensical move conflict between acid pour and cattle toss is removed. They aren't even the same input.

Buffs

1: Acid Pour is 2-3 frames faster so it combos off 111

Variation changes:

1: Scud Shot is removed, 52 Kard Pickup now only has enhanced rifle stance, U2 and D3 damage buffed. It's now a three slot move.
2: Barking Irons now only has Cattle Toss and Snake Slide Cancel
3: Locked And Loaded is now Netherbeast Trap and TNT.

So how does this effect his character? Well, let's address that.

1: He has the ghetto zoning from Outworld Gunslinger to make all three of his variations better in neutral.
2: A universal solid unbreakable damage option with anything into acid pour.
3: Acid pour KB is now universal, buffing his other two variations.
4: B2U4222 in Outworld Gunslinger gives you a free TNT as well as a safe Netherbeast trap setup.
5: Barking Irons becomes terrifying. F3~Cattle Toss and F3~Acid pour as far as I can tell is an unseeable mixup. This makes the post MB slide game terrifying.

There's some other shit, but oddly enough, by condensing more shit into his base kit and re-arranging variations, he becomes a much more diverse character that's strong, yet does have to take risks. Scud Shot can be put on a Gunslinger variation later, which is in the presets. Up Peacemarker, Peacemaker and Scud Shot.

What do you guys think?

as an erron main I def agree with a lot of this. Main thing being making his string zoning universal. It’s stupid that it’s not. Idk about removing scud shot tho. It’s so necessary for him because without it he has no real fireball equivalent. As marksman rifle is obviously limited in bullets and speed at which it comes out n shit. It’s hard to fix this character honestly because like you said his other variations really have no synergy in moves. If any move needs to just disappear it’s tnt. There’s no place for it in this game. Needs to stay out