Strategy - Raiden Raidens of the Lost Art(Displacer/MoS discussion)

[Jb879212]

I am a dedicated Raiden loyalist, however, it has become abundantly clear that TG raiden outclasses its other variations in many different fashions. However I know that myself, as well as others, are both dedicated and passionate about bringing Raidens other variations into the forefront of competitive gameplay. That being said I want this thread to resemble that of a living guide and to that end I would like the community to help organize and sustain this thread for the purpose of evolving Raiden's other variations to a higher level of gameplay.

What I mean to achieve with this thread is a couple of things.

1. Discussion about how we can help develop TG's siblings into competitively viable variations.
2. I would like the lab monsters and dedicated players to help navigate these variations and provide insight on viable tech, combos, and tips regarding (pressure, neutral game, punishes, etc)
3. Longevity and sustainability. To clarify I mean that I want YOU, the community to help establish and promote this thread.

Thanks for reading guys, now lets discuss, learn, and prosper.

 

[BlackJackSnack]

I have been playing displacer exclusively, I think it is a lot better than what people say about it.

Main reason being he is not easy to contain. I understand that he is not safe on tele but if you tele far he is. Using his other versions of tele do cost a meter however.

I always try to tele and run at my opponent and try to make them guess between my 5050, this can sometimes cause problems though since both tele far and run use stamina bar. So if you tele far and run into his b2 you may not have enough bar to connect a combo using b2.

Overall I think displacer is still very good, a lot of people seem to want to see combos involving the meter burn tele but it's just not very practical...you have to use 2 bars midscreen to connect a descent combo. Even then raiden has a 46 percent 2 bars midscreen for all variations that (from what I can tell) does more damage than all 2 bar tele combos.

 

[Jb879212]

Yeah I'm ok with that tech though. b2 to raw superman is about 17% with the advantage of corner carry which is basically the set play for raiden in general if you ask me. Though I'm glad you think he's good I just get nervous with the fact that displacer raiden relies so heavily on meter and is without a safe way to build it.

 

[Jb879212]

I will say this as well. I think that the far teleport baits a lot of people into doing silly things like jumping or making them commit to an overly aggressive playstyle. I like displacer as well and I find that you can often capitalize of these opportunities if given the chance.

 

[mrtom]

I've been using MoS a lot and I think it holds up against TG. The orb traps give you great control over your opponents movements. It's not as strong in the corner as TG but you gain a much stronger midscreen game. 1 orb trap can net you 34% damage for 1 bar. I personally find it better than TG vs high mobility characters. When you first pick up MoS it feels really weak in comparison to TG until you become proficient with using the orbs. I never thought I'd prefer it over TG but the more I use it, the less I want to use TG. The key is to have one orb on screen at all times. It's very important you get the 1st orb out safely, 1 orb is not worth taking damage over. You can take risks with the 2nd orb since most attacks will be interrupted by the beam and allow you to dish out more damage than you received but make sure you quick rise if you get knocked down or you'll miss the punish. If you get knocked far, like off a jump kick, wakeup superman almost always connects.

 

[Jb879212]

I've been using MoS a lot and I think it holds up against TG. The orb traps give you great control over your opponents movements. It's not as strong in the corner as TG but you gain a much stronger midscreen game. 1 orb trap can net you 34% damage for 1 bar. I personally find it better than TG vs high mobility characters. When you first pick up MoS it feels really weak in comparison to TG until you become proficient with using the orbs. I never thought I'd prefer it over TG but the more I use it, the less I want to use TG. The key is to have one orb on screen at all times. It's very important you get the 1st orb out safely, 1 orb is not worth taking damage over. You can take risks with the 2nd orb since most attacks will be interrupted by the beam and allow you to dish out more damage than you received but make sure you quick rise if you get knocked down or you'll miss the punish. If you get knocked far, like off a jump kick, wakeup superman almost always connects.

Excellent, I will have to take note of this. I kind of get the overall gist of what I am supposed to be doing with MoS but its really the how of it I've been struggling with. I think what would help is if you could maybe allude to what situations, combos, and/or block strings make the orb set ups safe.

 

[mrtom]

Excellent, I will have to take note of this. I kind of get the overall gist of what I am supposed to be doing with MoS but its really the how of it I've been struggling with. I think what would help is if you could maybe allude to what situations, combos, and/or block strings make the orb set ups safe.

A few of us have posted some useful stuff here:
http://testyourmight.com/threads/master-of-storms-wonders.50299/

 

[GLoRToR]

I dislike the idea that his teleport is a variation in itself, and a not really good one at that. I still think that his core moveset should apply to all variations but meh, too late for that. Just felt like saying that. Also, hi. I'm picking him up next to Cass.

 

[mrtom]

Excellent, I will have to take note of this. I kind of get the overall gist of what I am supposed to be doing with MoS but its really the how of it I've been struggling with. I think what would help is if you could maybe allude to what situations, combos, and/or block strings make the orb set ups safe.

Forgot to mention: Getting the first orb out safely is so important. There are a few setups that let you get an orb out safely like canceling b1,4 into an orb or if they are in juggle state 214 orb or ex orb. I usually stick to tossing one out after a knockdown or if they're far away. For the second orb, I like to throw it out when I think they are going to attack. If they do then they get caught and I can punish them if they don't, I'll use the time the beam is active to throw another one. You want to be close, but not so close they can hit you before the orb comes out. Really the best way to learn is to just start chucking orbs and don't worry about losing. Eventually you'll learn when it works and when it doesn't. You also want to practice your trap punishes. Getting as much damage as possible off a trap is so important. Also, don't become obsessed with getting an orb out at all costs, it's an easy mindset to fall into.

You can also do some shenanigans with the interactive stage jumps. Toss an orb, use it to get behind them then toss another.

 

[Jb879212]

I dislike the idea that his teleport is a variation in itself, and a not really good one at that. I still think that his core moveset should apply to all variations but meh, too late for that. Just felt like saying that. Also, hi. I'm picking him up next to Cass.

That was a big issue with me as well. Not that the teleport should be found across all variations but if a skill like that should be confined to a single entity then it should at least be able to punish heavy projectile spam. That among other things made me question displacer's viability, however, I don't believe that a buff is coming anytime soon nor is it necessary. I believe that with time and with the combined efforts of myself and the community, displacer will be better than or equal to its counter parts albeit the success will not have the luxury of being dependent on brain dead tactics or a spammable moveset like other characters. In any case good luck on your future endeavors with Raiden/Cassie. I do feel they compliment each others playstyle given the variations but let me know what you find in the future.

 

[Cosmic Forge]

My main issue with the traps is the armor mechanic. Even if you throw a 2nd trap out while they are down, by the time it links and you can start pressing buttons, they can just armor on wakeup and break through, or at the very least, trade, with your followup. Orbs are all fine as it long as they respect it, but that YOLO armor stuff wins.

And if orbs don't break armor, might as well go back to TG. The fast multi-hit sparks from TG can blow event through X-Rays if timed. I love Raiden, but MOS needs some love. Displacer too. Orbs need more versatility IMO.

 

[mrtom]

My main issue with the traps is the armor mechanic. Even if you throw a 2nd trap out while they are down, by the time it links and you can start pressing buttons, they can just armor on wakeup and break through, or at the very least, trade, with your followup. Orbs are all fine as it long as they respect it, but that YOLO armor stuff wins.

And if orbs don't break armor, might as well go back to TG. The fast multi-hit sparks from TG can blow event through X-Rays if timed. I love Raiden, but MOS needs some love. Displacer too. Orbs need more versatility IMO.

I agree, armor can definitely be an issue. I think a reasonable buff might be to have the ex version break armor or at least give raiden some armor for the ex.

 

[mrKrucifix]

While I haven't played him myself yet, a good friend of mine has really been hitting the lab with MoS.

One of his favorite tactics is to try and set up an orb in the corner. It goes off screen and it can't be seen. The orb traps also don't really have a limitation on how far they can reach, so you can literally have orbs off both sides of the screen, and it will still connect. It's very easy to forget about, especially if you're not used to fighting against it. You go for a poke or anything, and end up eating about a 35% punish.

Eventually it messes with you every time he sets an orb. There were a bunch of times where I'd hesitate and have to think "Was that the first or the second orb?". Meanwhile, he just keeps pressuring.

Definitely an underrated variant.

EDIT: He's not in TYM, but on both PSN and Reddit he goes by "Vaiist".

 

[mrtom]

While I haven't played him myself yet, a good friend of mine has really been hitting the lab with MoS.

One of his favorite tactics is to try and set up an orb in the corner. It goes off screen and it can't be seen. The orb traps also don't really have a limitation on how far they can reach, so you can literally have orbs off both sides of the screen, and it will still connect. It's very easy to forget about, especially if you're not used to fighting against it. You go for a poke or anything, and end up eating about a 35% punish.

Eventually it messes with you every time he sets an orb. There were a bunch of times where I'd hesitate and have to think "Was that the first or the second orb?". Meanwhile, he just keeps pressuring.

Definitely an underrated variant.

EDIT: He's not in TYM, but on both PSN and Reddit he goes by "Vaiist".

Yeah, MoS really messes with your opponents head.

I wish there was more tournament gameplay available but everyone seems to use TG. I've only seen it used in one of the first tournaments but it wasn't very helpful. The player usually used the high orb for his first orb and I'm still trying to figure out why. The high orbs are definitely better for stopping jump-ins but not very effective for the ground game. If your second orb goes behind them the beam won't hit.

 

[mrKrucifix]

Yeah, MoS really messes with your opponents head.

I wish there was more tournament gameplay available but everyone seems to use TG. I've only seen it used in one of the first tournaments but it wasn't very helpful. The player usually used the high orb for his first orb and I'm still trying to figure out why. The high orbs are definitely better for stopping jump-ins but not very effective for the ground game. If your second orb goes behind them the beam won't hit.

Vaiist came to the conclusion that the only orbs truly worth setting (as of right now) are the grounded orbs. It covers so much space and make it very difficult for anyone to get in on you when they're both out. It also eats most jump ins too, which really does make the air orbs seem pointless.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

idk why more people arent playing master of storms. that shits really good. if he has orbs out you j ust gotta respect whatever he does

 

[Barrogh]

I agree, armor can definitely be an issue. I think a reasonable buff might be to have the ex version break armor or at least give raiden some armor for the ex.

Or make the beam count as a hit then? I mean, many setup characters can stuff 1-hit armored attacks by combining a hit from setup and a hit with normal. I mean, by the looks of recent posts, it doesn't look that way for MoS... I wonder why.

 

[Jb879212]

Or make the beam count as a hit then? I mean, many setup characters can stuff 1-hit armored attacks by combining a hit from setup and a hit with normal. I mean, by the looks of recent posts, it doesn't look that way for MoS... I wonder why.

Yeah I thought about that as well. I've been reading and in theory if you time it right the trap plus whatever follow up you have should eat through a majority of the cast's armored moves. I guess if anyone has time to lab it please share your find.

 

[Vilén]

So... Displacer is toothless but Master of Storms shouldn't be slept on. When this starts to get more fleshed out it'll be really scary.

Basically, one orb out is kinda all you need. You can cancel into the second orb essentially when the fuck ever and the second you throw that out your opponent needs to either block or eat a combo. Shit's like +15 on hit so if you're in their face they have to guess b2/b33/throw.

It's just in that awkward stage because the only thing anyone's heard about it is that it's garbage so no one respects shit and it requires it. Playing a basically naked Raiden isn't awesome though.

I wouldn't say Thunder God totally outclasses the other two so much as it over performs in comparison. You've got two bar corner combos that do so much damage they're actually worth doing despite the price tag. Hard to choose anything else. When that damage gets normalized the other two will probably pop out more. Especially if they fix Displacer's teleport.

 

[Jb879212]

So... Displacer is toothless but Master of Storms shouldn't be slept on. When this starts to get more fleshed out it'll be really scary.

Basically, one orb out is kinda all you need. You can cancel into the second orb essentially when the fuck ever and the second you throw that out your opponent needs to either block or eat a combo. Shit's like +15 on hit so if you're in their face they have to guess b2/b33/throw.

It's just in that awkward stage because the only thing anyone's heard about it is that it's garbage so no one respects shit and it requires it. Playing a basically naked Raiden isn't awesome though.

I wouldn't say Thunder God totally outclasses the other two so much as it over performs in comparison. You've got two bar corner combos that do so much damage they're actually worth doing despite the price tag. Hard to choose anything else. When that damage gets normalized the other two will probably pop out more. Especially if they fix Displacer's teleport.

Yeah I figured. Since week one I had it ranked TG , MoS, and Displacer in that order. Really I just want displacer to be good. The other two are already great but I just feel a better teleport would help deal with zoners should I choose to switch variations. Plus it would be nice to not see the same old same old every tournament as far as character's and their variations ( everyone's starting to bandwagon TG raiden more or less ever since J Wong and Sabin but eh).

 

[Barrogh]

Plus it would be nice to not see the same old same old every tournament as far as character's and their variations ( everyone's starting to bandwagon TG raiden more or less ever since J Wong and Sabin but eh).

I wouldn't say that it's just bandwagon. Currently I see MoS as being to Raiden what is Ancestral to Kung Jin. Same stuff as to-go variation, except with TG/Bojutsu you're being rewarded immediately and for more instead of just getting a little bit of damage and another go with your attempt to open opponent up. Except that A-Jin doesn't need two arrows to pull this off, he can already mixup/confirm into full combo after just one is out and his mixup~load has better reach and is safe on block. He also arguably has better tools overall in vanilla, but that's besides the point.

Look up the match between Chris G and Digit, you'll get what I'm saying. Every time Chris successfully opened up Digit and could afford to load -> into another mixup, he could've been confirming into 35% in bojutsu, and when he actually does have an arrow, he still does less damage than he could in bojutsu. This is how I feel about MoS - your setups aren't better than TG's naked attempts as opening people up and you must work for them in the frst place, sacrificing opportunities. Moreover, when you fail to open people up with MoS, you lose your setups and must back off. TG, however, at least has half bar of a meter as a consolation prize every second time...

That said, I feel that this is what normal character in this game should be instead of B-Jins and TGs, but eh.

In conclusion, currently both MoS and A-Jin offer next to nothing over respective bruteforce variations (let's be real, KJ's zoning is no hellbat and MoS space control is not even close to being ice clone equivalent) while suffering great decrease of the amount of said brute force.