Match-up Discussion Raiden vs. Ermac - what are your thoughts?

[GamerBlake90]

Greetings to my fellow Thunder Gods and to the warriors inhabited by many souls. zaf and I played a pretty fascinating set with my Raiden vs. his Ermac and the both of us felt down for opening up the gates to a discussion over this match-up. You all are encouraged to come in and provide your thoughts, as long as they are kept within a civil and productive level.

First, some footage. It is divided into two parts for your convenience.

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Part 1​

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Part 2​

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In my opinion, I see this as 6-4 in Raiden's favor and I will gladly explain to you why that is the case.​

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As a character, Ermac's primary goal is to zone and control space, and quite obviously a teleporting character like Raiden shuts that down for him. His pressure game also isn't the best with the speed of his normals as they are, save for his pokes. It's difficult for Ermac to stay on top of Raiden or to keep him out.​

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I would also like to add that Ermac's lack of armor doesn't help his situation, but when we look at Raiden's armored moves, his are unsafe, so a well-made read on the part of the Ermac player can lead to a full combo punish...and Ermac's damage is quite impressive for a character that isn't widely regarded as top-tier. He can hit for around 35% to 40% in his typical BnBs, and can go even higher than that with high-execution combos. Although, Raiden can hit for pretty much the same amount without meter.​

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Raiden, to me, is a hit-and-run kind of character. He can hack away at you with combos or chip damage, then teleport and lame you out as much as he likes. It will be a Hell of a task for the Ermac player to chase after him when he no longer holds the life lead, let alone corner him.​

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Ermac will need to coordinate his rushdown carefully when trying to open a hole in Raiden's defenses - he cannot get reckless and disregard Raiden's meter or his teleport, lest he leave himself vulnerable. I should also say that if you land a jump-in punch and it gets blocked, do not follow up with a b1, as that can be armored out of...or, in the case of Raiden, eluded via teleport. The same can be said for his charged b2.​

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Always be mindful of the range of Raiden's b3 when he comes in or is in a position to whiff-punish you, it is longer than what players realize. It is not reliable as a rushdown tool as it's fifteen frames and can easily be jumped if you try to come in using this move, but makes for a great pressure tool when you mix in the Thunder God's d4, d3, f2 4, and even his throw.​

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That's about as much as I can think of for now.​

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Tell me, how do you Ermac/Raiden players fare in this match-up? What do you do that works? Might you have some new ideas to bring to the table?​

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Discuss freely.​

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B W1zZ Chaosphere 4x4lo8o Big D Metzos Raidenwins greguu Claude VonStroke DetroitBalln MITDJT Perfect Legend ShanxterX STORMS Krayzie​

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Please tag as many Ermac or Raiden players as you possibly can, I want more of them to get in on this.​

 

[4x4lo8o]

If I remember right Raiden can punish push with Superman every single time. I've always though this was one of Raidens best match ups. There's not a whole lot Ermac can do, especially if Raiden gets a life lead

 

[GamerBlake90]

If I remember right Raiden can punish push with Superman every single time. I've always though this was one of Raidens best match ups

That is correct, Ermac's force push can be punished with a superman no matter where it is blocked on the screen. Combine that with Raiden's teleport and Ermac cannot control the screen effectively using his push.

 

[Big D]

6-4 for Raiden at the very LEAST. But then again, I downplay Ermac

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Got to say 6 4 raiden, that punish he gets on the push is the biggest reason why. That and ermac has to watch for tele's the whole match and change up his playstyle big time.

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

Got to say 6 4 raiden, that punish he gets on the push is the biggest reason why. That and ermac has to watch for tele's the whole match and change up his playstyle big time.

^^^^ all of this is a big part of the mu I think.

 

[ColdBoreMK23]

When I play against a Raiden player as Ermac I have to be careful and play defensively or else I get blown up and have a hard time coming back.




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[greguu]

Definitely in Raiden's favor, Ermac has to play Raiden's game in this matchup

 

[Metzos]

GamerBlake90


Full screen: Raiden wins. Period. Ermac cannot zone him with projectiles, since he can easily teleport on reaction and punish Ermac with a full combo. Same applies for Raiden as well though. His projectiles have shitty recovery, so whenever he throws one out, Ermac has a free teleport. Raiden can also bait Ermac's teleports though with whiffed VB's. They have really fast recovery, plus they allow Raiden to safely build meter. If Raiden starts doing that, Ermac can start checking him with projectiles.

Mid screen: This is where it gets tricky. Raiden is one of the few characters in the game who can punish a max range TKP with Superman. Dash block your way in and be ready to punish any random Supermans and teleports, it is the only thing Ermac can do in that distance. Also if Ermac expects a teleport coming from Raiden, he can full combo punish it with 12 to lift. Just be careful of his EX teleport which has invincibility frames and teleports twice.

Up close and sweep range: Sweep range Ermac wins. IaFB can easily keep Raiden out and he has no answer against that, except teleport. Up close, its even. Both have really good down pokes. Against Raiden when up close, dont crouch, like ever. He only has one low which is slow as hell and its at the end of his string. Also its not a combo starter. Most of his strings have overheads hits. Utilizing Ermac's 312 here is a must, since the entire string does not whiff on block against Raiden because of his big hitbox. Just be careful of his armored EX shocker and EX teleport which has invincibility frames, when pressuring him. EX Shocker can be baited though and punished with a full combo when blocked. It is also a true high move.

Solutions: This is one of these MU's where Ermac cannot compete against Raiden when in full screen and mid screen, thus he must act like a rush down character. The key to wins this MU is up close, like Freddy. Always finish your combos with F4, in order to keep him close to Ermac and start pressuring afterwards. Abusing the hell out of 312 string is essential in this MU. Also B1 to throw mix ups on block, dont work against Raiden since he can teleport out of B1 and punish you instead. 31 to throw mix ups are also essential because they completely shut down Raiden's teleport.

Post edited.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Metzos

A quick correction: Raiden has no armor on EX Teleport, he has invincibility frames. The two are different.

Also about not crouching, the same logic could be used for Smoke and yet their answer is to throw out d4s with great hit advantage, off of which they'll go into pressure or a throw. This will cause them to slip up a bit in their defending. Lows may not lead to combos, but it's not like you can afford to get hit by d4s over and over. As a Raiden player, I abuse his d4 a ton.

 

[Metzos]

Metzos

A quick correction: Raiden has no armor on EX Teleport, he has invincibility frames. The two are different.

Also about not crouching, the same logic could be used for Smoke and yet their answer is to throw out d4s with great hit advantage, off of which they'll go into pressure or a throw. This will cause them to slip up a bit in their defending. Lows may not lead to combos, but it's not like you can afford to get hit by d4s over and over. As a Raiden player, I abuse his d4 a ton.

Hmm, weird i remember him having armor in his EX Teleport.

According to the frame data Raiden's d4 is 15f. He cannot rely on that to start poking Ermac. Plus Ermac's d4 is faster. Also Smoke's d4 is a lot better than Raiden's. Smoke's B2 is the fastest overhead in the game i think and is also a very good advancing move which leads to, pretty much, death if Smoke has bars. That combined with his excellent d4 give him a much more aggressive and deadlier mix up game than Raiden.

Its 6-4 Raiden. Ermac must act as a rush down character to have a chance winning the particular MU.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Hmm, weird i remember him having armor in his EX Teleport.

According to the frame data Raiden's d4 is 15f. He cannot rely on that to start poking Ermac. Plus Ermac's d4 is faster. Also Smoke's d4 is a lot better than Raiden's. Smoke's B2 is the fastest overhead in the game i think and is also a very good advancing move which leads to, pretty much, death if Smoke has bars. That combined with his excellent d4 give him a much more aggressive and deadlier mix up game than Raiden.

Its 6-4 Raiden. Ermac must act as a rush down character to have a chance winning the particular MU.

Agreed with all of that. With the overheads coming at the end of Raiden's main strings (3 3 4 and b3 1 2), Ermac has no need to block high unless he sees those strings coming. BUT, I promise you that his d4 has uses. You watched the videos, I hope?

 

[Metzos]

Agreed with all of that. With the overheads coming at the end of Raiden's main strings (3 3 4 and b3 1 2), Ermac has no need to block high unless he sees those strings coming. BUT, I promise you that his d4 has uses. You watched the videos, I hope?

I will after i m finished watching the VxG archive and i ll get back to you.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Shouldn't the Raiden's teleport a very useful tool to avoid or to counter Ermac's Rushdown?

 

[Metzos]

Shouldn't the Raiden's teleport a very useful tool to avoid or to counter Ermac's Rushdown?

Raiden's tp can be shut down after a blocked 31 by Ermac with a throw. Throw will always win against his tp.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Raiden's tp can be shut down after a blocked 31 by Ermac with a throw. Throw will always win against his tp.

I mean, what does everyone uses is teleport for? I generally use to exactly avoid this situations where i should block, on that bink moment when the first hit is really close to connect, i'm able to teleport out of there, which in most of the cases gives a free punish window.

So as a Ermac player, is expected for Raiden to block a string when he is expecting one?

 

[Metzos]

GamerBlake90, zaf, just saw the matches. It seems that zaf doesnt know the MU well. I saw too many lost hit confirms to lift and random teleports (i guess it could have been an input bug). If not, he got frustrated a lot. He got hit a lot by random supermans as well. When you were up close he was too afraid to counter-poke you, like, at all. Also he did no AA's and cross-up AA's except some wake up lifts while you were jumping at him. I ve also been wanting to ask him for sometime now. Why in the green hell is he using naked EX TKP's? I dont know man, you played the match up perfectly, and you got into zaf's head. He must have been frustrated a lot. BUT we must also take into account the online factor. zaf didnt use at all double jumps kick teleport combos and i have seen he is using them effectively offline. Raiden's tp can be punished with 12xx lift from Ermac if he reads it.

 

[Metzos]

I mean, what does everyone uses is teleport for? I generally use to exactly avoid this situations where i should block, on that bink moment when the first hit is really close to connect, i'm able to teleport out of there, which in most of the cases gives a free punish window.

So as a Ermac player, is expected for Raiden to block a string when he is expecting one?

Raiden cannot teleport from 31 after a blocked jump in, except if he uses EX teleport i think (cant remember exactly i havent played against Nivek for quite sometime). He can only teleport from B114 string after a blocked jump in.

 

[zaf]

GamerBlake90, zaf, just saw the matches. It seems that zaf doesnt know the MU well. I saw too many lost hit confirms to lift and random teleports (i guess it could have been an input bug). If not, he got frustrated a lot. He got hit a lot by random supermans as well. When you were up close he was too afraid to counter-poke you, like, at all. Also he did no AA's and cross-up AA's except some wake up lifts while you were jumping at him. I ve also been wanting to ask him for sometime now. Why in the green hell is he using naked EX TKP's? I dont know man, you played the match up perfectly, and you got into zaf's head. He must have been frustrated a lot. BUT we must also take into account the online factor. zaf didnt use at all double jumps kick teleport combos and i have seen he is using them effectively offline. Raiden's tp can be punished with 12xx lift from Ermac if he reads it.

I definitely do not know the MU as well as I should. I still feel puzzled at times. It's like one of the few Mus were ermac can not play his game and rush down ermac is weird. Blake was actually the first Raiden I really got to practise with. Some teleports I do get as input errors, not sure why. It is also kind of hard to counter poke and AA consistently online. The naked ex-tkps are also input errors, that I know for sure. I am not letting go of block fast enough when I do a normal tkp, resulting in an ex one. I need to work on this MU hard. Double jk combos also rarely work online >_>

 

[zaf]

I do feel that in this MU if it is in anyone's favor it is Raidens. When a character fully shuts down ermacs zoning control, ermac is forced to play a different game. While he still has some tools to do as such, I feel that it still weakens his overall gameplay. In this instance, having TKP punished no matter what on block heavily limits his space control and weakens the fear of tkp in the other persons mind. If they do not have to respect the move, it makes it harder for ermac to establish his offense.

In terms of Raidens offense, it is just as weak as ermacs with the slow start up normals, holes in the strings etc. So it is not like Raiden has an up close advantage other then teleport.

 

[DetroitBalln]

@gaymerblake90

Why did you tag me in this?

 

[GamerBlake90]

@gaymerblake90

Why did you tag me in this?

Because I recall you playing a godlike Ermac against CD Jr. at one of last year's MLG arenas. And let's be serious here, you could pick up any character and be godlike with them in seconds. I figured you might know a couple things about this match-up, as you also train with some Raiden players, one of which is one of the best in the world, if not the best.

 

[Metzos]

I definitely do not know the MU as well as I should. I still feel puzzled at times. It's like one of the few Mus were ermac can not play his game and rush down ermac is weird. Blake was actually the first Raiden I really got to practise with. Some teleports I do get as input errors, not sure why. It is also kind of hard to counter poke and AA consistently online. The naked ex-tkps are also input errors, that I know for sure. I am not letting go of block fast enough when I do a normal tkp, resulting in an ex one. I need to work on this MU hard. Double jk combos also rarely work online >_>

Yeah its a weird MU, same with Freddy and Kenshi a bit. You need to be patient against Raiden. I know thats why i mentioned the online factor. I ve seen you play offline and its not the same . If you are getting random teleports insted of d4's, you can do df4 for example. It works wonders for me. Same with d1.

I do feel that in this MU if it is in anyone's favor it is Raidens. When a character fully shuts down ermacs zoning control, ermac is forced to play a different game. While he still has some tools to do as such, I feel that it still weakens his overall gameplay. In this instance, having TKP punished no matter what on block heavily limits his space control and weakens the fear of tkp in the other persons mind. If they do not have to respect the move, it makes it harder for ermac to establish his offense.

In terms of Raidens offense, it is just as weak as ermacs with the slow start up normals, holes in the strings etc. So it is not like Raiden has an up close advantage other then teleport.

Yeah i know. If Raiden couldnt punish a max ranged TKP, the MU would be in Ermac's favor for sure. You should try doing more blocked 31's and then throw. It shuts down Raiden's teleport completely.

 

[Error]

I must ask, how's PSN online holding out? I might try to get on and I'd like to give the Ermac - Raiden MU a shot as well. Although first, I have to get used to playing MK again.

 

[FrostyBarrel]

Hey simple question.
When, you guys (Ermac players) land a JIP that's blocked what do you do? I always do IAFB right after ,but at the same time when I jump in I like to use kicks. I use his D4 a lot in this match up.