Quan Chi v Smoke | What are our options now?

[STB Bodam]

Seriously,
Some of us Quan Chi players are going to get straight blown up by Smoke. It honestly has the potential to be terrible but what can we do to catch these bastards off-guard and win the match-up? I guess a lot of what I'm basing on is in theory and while I searched ALL OVER this place for any information -- with Smoke's reset, I feel like this might even deserve its own thread.

Basically, do we still use our meter to Rune Trap if we can or do we use it to break when we get caught? (since it's so easy to catch Quan Chi and punish him hard) This might just be a theory since I have no experience in this match-up but man, it just seems unbeatable. I'd like to hear from Shujinkydink or halfeaten about their take on this and how they handle it but here's what I think I know:

- Whiffed Sky Drop = D+1 to (free) Smoke Bomb
- Skulls = Telepunch or free pressure from a whiffed Telepunch in the air
- Cross-Over = Standing 2 to full combo (risk/reward though)
- Trance (Mid-Screen) = Teleport/Whiffed Teleport to pressure
- Wake-Up anything = Suicide, yeah?

There is nothing to Woolay about in this match-up. As you can see if we cannot trap them with much, we might really be royally screwed. But! There just might be some saving grace if we can force them to breaker and frustrate them with 112-Trances and Rune Trap strings/mix-ups.

Tell me Quan Chi board: How do you plan to approach this and salvage a win against some of the best Smokes?

 

[ImmortalSkillit]

With the new stuff thats been presented for Smoke, I think i'd still have to approach this match up the same way, albeit much more dangerous now.

I usually play a keep away game, and try my very best to WIN the first round. Smoke has to come to you to do his resets, so make him work for it. If you can bait a tele, then great. If they're being picky about throwing the tele, keep them honest with a occasional skull or trace. Trance is a good trade with smoke bomb, Skull isn't; be careful.

Rune Traps are still very viable, considering that all they really mean, is that if you can get them to 40%, you can win out and there is nothing he/she can do about it unless they can break. TBH, this sounds very similar to what Smoke does to everyone...just we're on a smaller scale

So...
-Try to WIN the first round at all costs. Round 2 goes to building your meter, and trying your damnedest to cause them to breaker, or just flat out use meter. Round 3, if all goes well, you have a full meter, and they're at the most, 2 bars.

-Rune Traps are great to end a round, but i'd probably avoid using them mid match just for damage, unless you're POSITIVE that the mix up afterwards will go unblocked/smoke player has trouble blocking the strings. Hey, it happens.

-Smart meter use. I don't imagine you'll be throwing too many en. Skulls or en. Trances in this match

Always been a rough match up, but play a bit of keep away, force a mistake, and...Woolay!

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Here's my immediate thought. Yes, you're going to have to burn meter with Quan, you're always going to have to burn meter with Quan. Thing is, he only gets 16% off a 212 EX rune. Smoke gets around 60% off 1 bar with the reset...

Makes that 48% with 3 bars seem a bit moot. Seems like a death wish. Maybe he'll breaker the rune trap, but I'm sure that every Smoke player is going to want to preserve at least a bar these days. I know it's always going to come back to the "Well, the better player wins" argument; it just isn't applicable when your opponent can land that much damage off a single mistake. I've had many matches where it's been down to the wire and I'm annihilated simply due to the resets.

Admittedly, I find it pretty funny these days when people complain about the rune trap; that's a lot of meter to burn for very little damage compared to what Cyrax and Smoke can do with a bar.

 

[RiBBz22]

Theoretically if I was using resets in competitive play and playing a good Quan, I would be saving my meter for breaker only and not wasting 1/3 of my meter for a reset which isn't guaranteed.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Theoretically if I was using resets in competitive play and playing a good Quan, I would be saving my meter for breaker only and not wasting 1/3 of my meter for a reset which isn't guaranteed.

Here's the thing though, Quan's strings are so slow. U3~trance is horribly punishable as well. When people fuzzy guard him correctly, he has no momentum, he's like a senior Johnny Cage who has to burn his breaker to get a little bit of damage out there.

Maybe that's just me approaching the character incorrectly, but I feel that once his 'mindfuckery' is thrown aside, he's a wet noodle who has no defensive options outside of his 7 frame d3 and uppercut. I just don't think he has the tools to compete with a character like Smoke, plain and simple. If his pokes were good? I'd feel a lot more confident about the character.

You breakdown a character like Smoke and you see this: great pokes, insane damage potential, great anti-zoning tools, and a projectile which can lead to a 60%+ reset. I am not going to attempt to trade a skull with Smoke, I'd be an idiot to do that.

Wake-Up anything = Suicide, yeah?

To be fair, hasn't that always been the case?

 

[RiBBz22]

Here's the thing though, Quan's strings are so slow. U3~trance is horribly punishable as well. When people fuzzy guard him correctly, he has no momentum, he's like a senior Johnny Cage who has to burn his breaker to get a little bit of damage out there.

Maybe that's just me approaching the character incorrectly, but I feel that once his 'mindfuckery' is thrown aside, he's a wet noodle who has no defensive options outside of his 7 frame d3 and uppercut. I just don't think he has the tools to compete with a character like Smoke, plain and simple. If his pokes were good? I'd feel a lot more confident about the character.

You breakdown a character like Smoke and you see this: great pokes, insane damage potential, great anti-zoning tools, and a projectile which can lead to a 60%+ reset. I am not going to attempt to trade a skull with Smoke, I'd be an idiot to do that.

Totally agree that its a really difficult match-up. I play a lot of Quan too, but if I was playing him with Smoke I would still save for breakers regardless in case I need it to prevent getting 212 Runed to death.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Totally agree that its a really difficult match-up. I play a lot of Quan too, but if I was playing him with Smoke I would still save for breakers regardless in case I need it to prevent getting 212 Runed to death.

I mean, I'm not saying that it's not a threat, but even if you're saving for a breaker; you've potentially got a bar there for 60%. I think if Quan had more applicable means to put people in said situations, it'd be different, if his d1 was 6/7 frames for instance and he could reliable trance off that. The applicable setting for players who know his limitations are just weak though. If Skydrop wasn't a death sentence, or if EX skydrop had a safer recovery on it (I hate this move, pisses me off so bad - what was the point of giving it armor if it's JUST as punishable on block/whiff?) then yes...he'd have some more applicable means but eh.

 

[RiBBz22]

Yea, but I don't need a bar to do over 40% and the 1 bar only gives me a chance at 60% . What sucks even though seeing it from both sides is that for Quan, you have to deal with the threat of the reset which could cause you to break even though you don't know 100% for sure that the reset will hit (even though it obviously makes sense to break after the 1 bar of meter is used). Since Quan players need to hold onto the meter, it is a problem for sure.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

Yea, but I don't need a bar to do over 40% and the 1 bar only gives me a chance at 60% . What sucks even though seeing it from both sides is that for Quan, you have to deal with the threat of the reset which could cause you to break even though you don't know 100% for sure that the reset will hit (even though it obviously makes sense to break after the 1 bar of meter is used). Since Quan players need to hold onto the meter, it is a problem for sure.

I mean, he does have good damage off a naked trance, or his mixups. He'd have a fantastic comeback factor if they were faster. 1 isn't awful at 11 frames, but 11/112 isn't safe at all due to the fact that 1 whiffs high. B1 at 12 frames is a substantially safer option, which can also be connected to trance.

However, at the end of the day when you break down what this character is, he does feel like Johnny Cage with slower normals. Albeit a bit more mobility, Quan is not a master of anything. He can zone alright, and he can rushdown okay, and to newer more unfamiliar players he's the biggest asshole ever due to his proposed mindfuckery but at the end of the day he feels like a parlor trick who has to hope that he can put the experienced player in a situation where he burns his breaker for damage. When I play people who don't know him? They're toast. When I play people who do indeed know him? I'm toast. Salty toast.

Cage is more among the lines of "Oh, you're going to zone my ass out? Cool. I'm gonna eventually get in there and knee you in the face a couple thousand times and turn your testicles into swollen grapefruits. How you like them apples?!"

metzos13 allegedly has some tech for him that makes him a formidable threat against zoners though, until this is proposed, I have very little faith in Quan.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

I shall tell you how to play smoke.

FYI its 6-4 smoke, but not terrible.

Patience is key in this matchup, chances are hes going to smoke away and throw bombs at your feet all day. Dash block to get in. The smoke bombs do no chip damage.

"But dink hes building meter!"

let him. hes gotta reach that corner sooner or later. This is where your reflexes are your friend. If your playing a new smoke player he will naked teleport which is retarded, keep blocking and punish with b21 or whatever your combo of choice is.

He may jump at you, in this case, d1 into trance, meter build, skydrop rune away.

The most likely choice is that he will do an IA teleport. IF THIS HAPPENS, you can d1 trance before he hits the ground. I cant stress enough how huge this is in this matchup . YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT ON REACTION. it takes away that element of his game, and forces him to come up with different ways(none of which are as safe) to get in. 99% sure he wont break the d1 trance because he wont expect it. You can now do one of two things, build your meter,or jump over him so he zombie walks himself into the corner, then 11 skydrop. if he breaks your 11 skydrop so be it. NOW, the threat of the reset isnt there, and he has to find a different way out of the corner unless he wants to risk you missing d1 trance again. once you punish him in the corner, keep block strings going for meter building. If he does manage to get our and smoke away again, check your health bar. If you have the life lead, let him run all he wants, hes going to have to do something eventually, and chances are it wont be that safe. If you dont, simply repeat, but make sure you pay attention.


I hoped this helps, This is one of my least favorite matchups.

theres one more thing that you should use in this matchup, or any matchup really. I call it, the Dink Trap.

This trap allows you to hit up to 6 trances for meter building as well as the option to go into 11 skydrop depending on how risky your feeling.

But this tech is top secret, and you will have to watch the final round stream to see it first

 

[GNG Iniquity]

theres one more thing that you should use in this matchup, or any matchup really. I call it, the Dink Trap.

This trap allows you to hit up to 6 trances for meter building as well as the option to go into 11 skydrop depending on how risky your feeling.

But this tech is top secret, and you will have to watch the final round stream to see it first

I am intrigued!

 

[Faded Dreams V]

Do what Shujinkydink does. Pick Stryker instead. <3

 

[halfeaten]

Smoke is a tough match-up for Quan. But its not impossible.

Like Dink mentioned, the best (and only) way to play this MU is with patience and safety. Going balls out and throwing skulls or sky drops while he's tossing smoke bombs will get you killed. Smoke bombs will always catch your sky drop, even when you think they won't. Trading trance with smoke bomb is doable, but extremely risky and I wouldn't recommend it.

Uppercut is your friend here. If you can't reliably d1+trance, uppercut is another way to counter whiffed tele's.

Also, after successfully blocking Smoke's bnb's, I've found most Smoke players will either smoke away and throw smoke bombs or do a crossover jump into another bnb. If they smoke away, it will still leave them in range of a naked trance. This is a good time to trade trance with smoke bomb. Sometimes the trance will hit before they are even able to throw the bomb. It's still risky though. If the opponent decides to 2x smoke away, or block instead of smoke bomb, you'll get punished.

DO NOT rune trap freely mid-round. Meter needs to be saved for breakers and maybe ex. sky drops if you just need to get the hell away. I would only use rune traps when you know it will win you the round.

His reset is a threat, but if you're playing well enough then hopefully he'll be wanting to save and use meter for a breaker. If he does appear to be going for a reset, then that's what you saved your breaker for.

Fighting Smoke is all about being patient, reading your opponent, and taking away his options. If you remove his whiffed tele's and trance-range smoke away's from his arsenal (or make him think twice about using them), this MU becomes a lot less scary.

I do need a lot more experience with this MU though...

 

[GNG Iniquity]

If you can't reliably d1+trance

WTB 6 frame d1

C'mon....11 frames?! Those jerks.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

WTB 6 frame d1

C'mon....11 frames?! Those jerks.

ive dubbed it the sacktap because of the animation

 

[halfeaten]

Found out that Quan's x-ray can also be used to counter whiffed tele's. Extremely circumstantial but its worth noting.

Won a match from doing it last night, and I trollface'd IRL.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

But this tech is top secret, and you will have to watch the final round stream to see it first

I declare all Canadians reveal their Quan Chi tech.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I declare all Canadians reveal their Quan Chi tech.

Those Canadians and Greeks, man. I'm tellin' ya! They're way ahead in the woolay department.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

Found out that Quan's x-ray can also be used to counter whiffed tele's. Extremely circumstantial but its worth noting.

Won a match from doing it last night, and I trollface'd IRL.

his xray is alot like strykers. I enjoy it from time to time

 

[halfeaten]

his xray is alot like strykers. I enjoy it from time to time

Aye, both are very similar indeed. I wish Quan's couldn't be ducked under, though.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Those Canadians and Greeks, man. I'm tellin' ya! They're way ahead in the woolay department.

Nahhhh, wir sind zu kuhl für die zweite Klasse..

They might think they are, but us Americans, yeah, we got the tech that matters. We got the woolay that counts.