Preon's Guide to Balance V.013

[AK Black Preon]

Okay so we've all seen (Normalize this) (Nerf that) (Not the Buffs he Needs but the Buffs he deserves) threads all over TYM and to be fairly honest some of the buffs people ask for really help their character. While making some MUs absolutely horrid when fighting that character. The thing about balance that you must take into consideration isn't "This would help in these 3 matchups." You must think about how it would effect EVERY matchup. People talking about give some characters 2 hits of armor (I've seen give swamp hands armor and give Bane level 2, 2 hits of armor) while this may help vs Batman, Killer Frost, and Aqua Man if Grundy got those 2 hits of armor really skew some matchups. Like with Raven, if you got those extra hits of armor her zoning game slows down tremendously. Especially if Bane starts double punching and hitting Raven players with that proverbial "Fl3x" and it would really stuff ANY zoning game.

Suggestion: However I propose something different than "Nerf this and buff that" syndrome. I propose that NRS actually take something that is pretty much staple with other fighters and that's ABANDON the percentage system. However since NRS does like it so much I'll scale the idea to a % system.

Reason: In most games, the "Brain dead" character with good everything is that they are either the glass cannon (Can do a lot of dirty set-ups can score MASSIVE damage, but if they mess up their game any punish on them is huge.) or they are the "Dirty Brick" (A character who has a lot of set ups and vortex's that don't do a lot of damage, however have solid enough defense and mobility to balance that. Let's go with some theory examples for what I mean.

Let's start with Glass Cannons. Now before KF got any nerfs we had people complaining about her as if she was a problem. Off of ONE MOVE she could seemingly start something that could be the beginning of the end for a lot of the cast. With that said other characters probably would like to be rewarded for guessing right. So you could make her take more damage in comparison to the rest of the cast as suggested by the chart below. Meaning she still gets her 50/50's but it rewards KF smart play, while also rewarding the other player for punishing her mistakes. Rather than nerf characters this would allow characters to play their safe games which now makes the RISK match the REWARD which will by nature vary every matchup.

Calculation Legend:
Strong: 1.2x
Mid: 1x
Low Mid: .875x
Weak: .8x
Very Weak: .7x
Calculation: (X*Y) / Z = Scaled %

Example

X (Any %age in game) Say for instance a 41% combo
Y (The Attack Power of the Character) EX: strong character
Z (The Defense Power of the Character) EX: low mid

(41*1.2)/.875 =56% damage.

((Now note: This a ball park calculation due to certain moves scaling differently than others. A fine example would be Super Man's Heat Zap.))​

With the Scaled %s. A lot of the changes are nothing insane. But will normalize a lot of MUs I feel. As stated earlier, characters lacking mobility are normally more durable which is what makes them viable. As well as a lot of balanced characters in the mix and having some that specialize in the keep away game like a Deathstroke. Pre-patch deathstroke can still keep people at bay, have his guns and his solid up close game. But anyone who gets in can be REWARDED with solid damage. And now both players have to play smart for the full set.

Super Man can be in his comfort zone, but when someone gets in as in aforementioned scenario get that gravy reward of being in there. Batman gets his zoning options and keeps his pressure game up and still keep his no worries j2 and his at times dial-a-combo like gameplay yet not feel too overbearing in close quarters combat against slower characters and forcing to play smart versus characters with better zoning.

Now this isn't finalized in anyway just a starting place and I'd like to see what other TYM folk would have to say about this kind of change being implemented.

Also a little closer (Should Super Man's trait disable him from using lasers for the duration of the trait?)

 

[Jeffreys]

Are you trying to flesh out what pig suggested that we should make the stronger and more complete characters have less health like in SF?

 

[AK Black Preon]

Are you trying to flesh out what pig suggested that we should make the stringer and more complete characters have less health like in SF?

I made a video about this topic even back in MK9. Its something I've talked about with a lot of people I play with in the neighborhood. And if someone beat me to the suggestion box on TYM. I suppose I am trying to flesh it out. or at the very least get the ball rolling in that direction. I mean NRS does a good job at having the characters feel like "their character" but if this is truly a FIGHTING game and not a DC Universe game, balance is key.

 

[Briyen]

i always liked the idea of different life bars, seems like a really tricky thing to balance though

 

[AK Black Preon]

i always liked the idea of different life bars, seems like a really tricky thing to balance though

Yeah this is just a rough over and I'm not saying by any means are my changes correct in the current standing. I'd like community feedback on which characters this theoretical build would be too powerful or too weak to compete. And characters with varying help will encourage different play styles per MU.

 

[Jeffreys]

It is a wierd concept but you definetly have to flesh your chart out more to include zoning, mobility, trait, footsies, interactibles, etc.

 

[LOCO]

im not a fan of it
i like the percent system better
the problem is that with the percent system if a character doesnt do enough damage people start crying that he sucks like scorpian where the damage he deals is pretty much equal to your chart strong offence weak defence in a way but naaa people want to kill u with two combos instead of working with the great offence he has
ive notice a big split in the fgc on this issue (health/damage/balance)
u got the damage hungry combo hungry people
and then u got the footsies and setups kind of people
your always going to hear bitching from the power hungrys about damage with or without different lifebars
on the otherside youll always hear bout broken tools that a char has from the other side
thats why i feel like ull get a more honest response on balancing if u ask the players from one side about a contradicting issue because there more likely to give an unbiased answer
ask power hungrys bout the tools / and ask the other side bout health
just my thoughts on this though

 

[CCVengeance]

Really good effort OP.

 

[AK Black Preon]

Really good effort OP.

I appreciate it.

 

[AK Black Preon]

im not a fan of it
i like the percent system better
the problem is that with the percent system if a character doesnt do enough damage people start crying that he sucks like scorpian where the damage he deals is pretty much equal to your chart strong offence weak defence in a way but naaa people want to kill u with two combos instead of working with the great offence he has
ive notice a big split in the fgc on this issue (health/damage/balance)
u got the damage hungry combo hungry people
and then u got the footsies and setups kind of people
your always going to hear bitching from the power hungrys about damage with or without different lifebars
on the otherside youll always hear bout broken tools that a char has from the other side
thats why i feel like ull get a more honest response on balancing if u ask the players from one side about a contradicting issue because there more likely to give an unbiased answer
ask power hungrys bout the tools / and ask the other side bout health
just my thoughts on this though

Outside of NRS games I can't think of a fighter of high standing that does % based damage. From what I can see everything then becomes so calculated. Super Man / Bat Man players can play the same almost Universally against the entire cast while Characters like Bane have to RESPECT everyone on different terms while using similar set ups and shenanigans. Couple that with the Bane player can clearly have a better grasp on a MU but because their opponent is Super Man who can just shut down Bane with the greatest of ease. With Killer Frost at many levels of play, the gameplay revolves around f3 and slide, which off of 2 slides or f3s can be about 70-80% or other characters getting 35% and a reset opportunity off a simple wake up attack.

Not to mention some characters having great keep out / spacing tools I think characters who have a hard time getting in should be rewarded for actually getting in, more so than any % system has allowed thus far. I do appreciate the feedback though Loco

 

[Bildslash]

AK Black Preon

This is a damn good job! Unfortunately it's known Paulo is against the idea of different stamina / strenght.

 

[Impractical Joker]

Would this system he easily adjusted through hot fixes? What I mean is if all of a sudden some great tech is found for Lobo that makes him top 5 normally, would they still be able to quickly readjust it so that he is no longer strong and mid per say but rather mid and weak? If hot patches couldn't be implemented every so often then this system wouldn't balance the game much more than buffing the low tiers would. Also, some matchups could get even worse. Like if Green Lantern is given weak defense then he will be killed every time trying to get in on Cyborg, especially if Cyborg were made to be strong offense and weak defense. I would personally rather see the lower tier buffed and a few nerfs but this system is a viable option

 

[AK Black Preon]

AK Black Preon

This is a damn good job! Unfortunately it's known Paulo is against the idea of different stamina / strenght.

Well that is unfortunate. Maybe if we get a PC port we could mod-- nah too soon. But I really would like to know how the community feels on it, I did put some thought into it. But Paulo's going to do what paulo's gonna do in the end.

 

[Bildslash]

Well that is unfortunate. Maybe if we get a PC port we could mod-- nah too soon. But I really would like to know how the community feels on it, I did put some thought into it. But Paulo's going to do what paulo's gonna do in the end.

Pig brought this idea up in one of his podcasts. This approach would be interesting to say the least.

One can hope NRS will consider it for their next games.

 

[sgZick]

Concept is good, but I don't think the current chart is very accurate and I would add zoning and counterzoning as additional pillars, actually add more than that, like resets, wake-up, trait rating. Then score them and come up with an overall character score. Ideally it would be same for all characters.

Example (numbers are made up for illustration), Lantern comes out with 57 out of 100, while Lobo only has 30/100, in an ideal scenario all charaters would end up in a range between 50-60 for example. Thats how I would so it...

Green Lantern: 57/100
Attack - 6/10
Defense -6/10
Zoning -6/10
Counter Zoning - 5/10
Footsies -7/10
Hitbox - 5/10
Resets - 8/10
Movement - 3/10
50/50 -5/10
Trait -6/10


Lobo: 30/100
Attack - 3/10
Defense -3/10
Zoning -3/10
Counter Zoning - 3/10
Footsies -3/10
Hitbox - 3/10
Resets - 3/10
Movement - 3/10
50/50 -3/10
Trait -3/10

Edit: the actual categories and what goes in them need to be defined, like would Ease-of-Use/Complexity be one, if yes, how can it be measured into a score...

 

[AK Black Preon]

Would this system he easily adjusted through hot fixes? What I mean is if all of a sudden some great tech is found for Lobo that makes him top 5 normally, would they still be able to quickly readjust it so that he is no longer strong and mid per say but rather mid and weak? If hot patches couldn't be implemented every so often then this system wouldn't balance the game much more than buffing the low tiers would. Also, some matchups could get even worse. Like if Green Lantern is given weak defense then he will be killed every time trying to get in on Cyborg, especially if Cyborg were made to be strong offense and weak defense. I would personally rather see the lower tier buffed and a few nerfs but this system is a viable option

This chart is no where near finished since I don't even have a good vibe from a few members of the cast to have my own final verdict. Other people contributing would easily help this "theory chart" but I do see your point. However I doubt Cyborg would be made a strong character. This chart still has to factor in key zoning elements like IAFB ect. ect. This just a base model. However lets say we make Cyborg "Weak" atk but "Strong" in Defense. He can zone and use his grapple to get around and while with the strength buff can utilize his trait. Most characters who get in on Cyborg can more than likely do significant damage to him even with "Strong defense"

A character whose weak who does lets say "35%" combo under base rules.

The combo is only scaled to 23%. However it would take CONSTANT good cyborg play to keep out most people. But no one on the chart as of yet HAS a "weak offense" so you'd be looking more at 35% becoming 28% In worst case scenario. But I personally would rather have cyborg stay at ATK: Mid / DEF: Mid

 

[AK Black Preon]

This can

Concept is good, but I don't think the current chart is very accurate and I would add zoning and counterzoning as additional pillars, actually add more than that, like resets, wake-up, trait rating. Then score them and come up with an overall character score. Ideally it would be same for all characters.

Example (numbers are made up for illustration), Lantern comes out with 57 out of 100, while Lobo only has 30/100, in an ideal scenario all charaters would end up in a range between 50-60 for example. Thats how I would so it...

Edit: the actual categories and what goes in them need to be defined, like would Ease-of-Use/Complexity be one, if yes, how can it be measured into a score...

I can see where this comes from but with a system like that leaves too much in the open. Although it does give more specifics it has to ask, how much do we mean by "Attack". I mean we sure know Cyborg isn't getting any awards for his melee and although zoning is his main game and is its own category then what do we do with characters like Super Man / Bat Man? Also having figures like that can leave a lot into the realm of speculation. Let's say we get a character in the 50 realm with these stats.

Take Bane for instance

Bane: 55/100
Attack - 9/10
Defense -4/10 (Due to venom cooldown this can vary)
Zoning -0/10
Counter Zoning - 1/10
Footsies -8/10
Hitbox -2/10
Resets - 8/10
Movement - 7/10 (that dash)
50/50 -7/10
Trait -10/10

Death Stroke: 57
Attack - 7/10
Defense -8/10
Zoning -6.5/10
Counter Zoning - 5/10
Footsies -7/10
Hitbox -6/10
Resets - 3/10
Movement - 7/10
50/50 -7/10
Trait -1/10

How the character is designed and given other characters options it doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Unless we give his standing 1 mid properties which will up footsies. Give him another mobility buff? Make his 50/50's better that would be quite over bearing given the current game. And giving Bane 2 points or so.. he's above DS? Just saying its kind of weird and I might need to see a more worked out example. But I do thank you for your contribution.

 

[That__John__Guy]

I like the idea of the Stamina/Health tweak. I thought Pig made sense when he presented it. For one thing, NRS already has something like that in a game: look at fighting Goro or Kintaro in MK9! All of a sudden your attacks do less damage. It isn't like the mechanic for something like this is foreign to them.

Yet, I do think it might be useful to have this system in a separate Tournament Mode. I really like the idea of a Tournament Mode because it puts the focus squarely on competitive balance and off of fidelity to the DC Universe. In other words, it eliminates the "well of course he is totally awesome, he is Superman!" argument. Yeah, ok, I can see why there would be an impetus to make Superman more powerful than most of the rest of the cast, because he is Superman, in a true-to-the-comics sense. Superman should be able to tear Joker's heart out in a second. Yet, in a Tournament I don't think we all care about that, we just want balance.

 

[sgZick]

This can

I can see where this comes from but with a system like that leaves too much in the open. Although it does give more specifics it has to ask, how much do we mean by "Attack". I mean we sure know Cyborg isn't getting any awards for his melee and although zoning is his main game and is its own category then what do we do with characters like Super Man / Bat Man? Also having figures like that can leave a lot into the realm of speculation. Let's say we get a character in the 50 realm with these stats.

How the character is designed and given other characters options it doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. Unless we give his standing 1 mid properties which will up footsies. Give him another mobility buff? Make his 50/50's better that would be quite over bearing given the current game. And giving Bane 2 points or so.. he's above DS? Just saying its kind of weird and I might need to see a more worked out example. But I do thank you for your contribution.

Agree on most of this, however it depends on what you want your chart to say. If you use your formula on determining the combo damage potential due to scaling and use this value as general 'attack capabilities' that is very clear, undisputable and fact base. But I don't think even out things that way will help balance and actual gameplay. It does not really tell you where a character stands and why he stands there. While at the same time giving suggestions on what to change. As I said, I doubt tweaking the numbers without touching other aspects, like frame data, movement speed and so on the "real" balance can be adjusted.

 

[chief713]

Standard health really messes up the risk/reward of the game, IMO. I don't think there's a way to fix it outside of either giving variable health (which seems to pretty much be the endgame to what you're proposing in that chart) or doing major tweaking to damage output. I agree with the former, but at this point that may be too big an overhaul.

 

[LOCO]

tekken
kof
skullgirls
and a lot of other games not made by capcom dont follow the stamina ranking system
some games do some dont
i dont really care for it like i said
but there are many games that use the percent system