Please explain zoning advantage to me.

[Vagrant]

I need to know the rules of zoning. Mainly in order to improve my long range game with sonya. Can someone please explain to me the rules of projectile trades?

Like I was throwing rings at a sub zero the other day and I recovered in time to block his freeze from full screen after my ring. But then later on I tried the same thing and I got frozen. What are the rules that decide who wins a projectile trade and whether or not a player can recover in time to block when trading.

This is probably the area of MK that I'm most ignorant in, I've always just gone by "feel" when zoning.

 

[MashPotatoTower]

It's pretty straight forward. Projectiles have recovery and exicution. Sonya's recovers really fast, you got froze because you were slower to the shot.

 

[Vagrant]

Is it really that simple and I'm just overthinking it?

 

[Smarrgasm]

It has a ton to due with positioning and how they are dealing with your zoning. In the case of sonya and sub she gets rings out without trading most of the time only when sub zero is full screen. Regular ice ball will not trade with ring full screen if they start up around the same time. This means the sub either has to duck a ring to get his next ice out first or somehow close the gap. Keeping yourself full screen against sub to get rings is a crucial part of the keep away that sonya can enforce on him. Like i said its different in all MU's. You just gotta learn when to take your shots and when to know a bad trade will occur. Or in the case where your character gets outzoned you have to find ways to force them off their zoning for a moment so you can gain a slight advantage and possibly get in.

 

[Laos_boy]

I wanna know why blocked glove toss to hell spike is a trap ( frame data wise )

 

[DJ L Toro]

basically it's frame data plus the frames it takes for the projectile to move x distance on the screen and then recovery is taken into account. every attack in the game has block stun (even if it's negative on block), so you have to think of it as:
advantage+duration to x distance on screen-recovery=zoning advantage

sonya's recovery is really good so at full screen her zoning advantage is really high even though her projectile moves very quickly. she also often gets to block projectiles making the first part of the equation negative so that when her projectile hits she has advantage. if you shoot too late though recovery doesnt matter because it now simply becomes (assuming a trade) their hit advantage + ditance/your hit advantage + distance.

hope that made sense

 

[DJ L Toro]

what i mean by distance, btw, is how many frames it takes to go to the opponent on the screen. i believe somberness included that in the frame data at min and max ranges.
equations:
you hit the opponent doesnt throw a projectile: your hit adv + distance - recovery

you hit and block the opponent's projectile: your hit adv + distance - recovery/their block adv + distance - the recovery frames before they were hit

you trade: your hit adv + distance - recovery until hit/their hit adv + distance - recovery until hit

the other 2 possibilities (opponent hit you not throw and they hit and block yours are the same with the numerator and denominator swapped)

 

[Vagrant]

what i mean by distance, btw, is how many frames it takes to go to the opponent on the screen. i believe somberness included that in the frame data at min and max ranges.
equations:
you hit the opponent doesnt throw a projectile: your hit adv + distance - recovery

you hit and block the opponent's projectile: your hit adv + distance - recovery/their block adv + distance - the recovery frames before they were hit

you trade: your hit adv + distance - recovery until hit/their hit adv + distance - recovery until hit

This type of shit is exactly what I wanted, thank you.

 

[Pikachu]

Look at Kabal's IAGB, zoning advantage.....

 

[MashPotatoTower]

I wanna know why blocked glove toss to hell spike is a trap ( frame data wise )

That's a good question!!
For example Kung Lao low hat is -12 on block, but only up close
If some blocks a low hat at mid screen it's gonna be a little advantage on block.
Because the recovery is 'recovering' while the projectile is drifting through the air, so around when the projectile is blocked the player that shot it may recover from the attack animation. In most cases giving advantage at full screen
like quan chi can get a free far rune if the play blocks skull full screen

 

[Vagrant]

Look at Kabal's IAGB, zoning advantage.....

I don't even count that as zoning. It's just rape..

 

[MashPotatoTower]

So if you cancel a projectile out of a normal with push back the projectile will be safe on block
Like Kung loa low hat being -12 but if you do d4 low hat it's safe except (except 4 reptile I think)

 

[Seapeople]

Something I stumbled on a while ago is that if you want to find the block advantage of your projectile from full screen, you would just do this...
Full screen execution - (point blank execution - block advantage) = Block advantage from full screen

Since Laos_boy asked about Freddy's frametraps I'll use glove toss as an example...
43 - (15 - -5) = +23 after a blocked glove toss from full screen. Since hellspike is only 16 frames it is completely guaranteed.
Like some people have already mentioned, the amount of advantage you're at decreases based on how close you are to the other player.

Zoning isn't very calculated though since it depends on so many factors like who put their projectile on screen first, who has the faster projectile, whether you ducked the opponent's last projectile or blocked it, etc. It's just something you learn by feel imo.

With Sonya vs Sub Zero, he can duck her onion rings from 3/4 screen and then be able to put out an ice blast to trade if you try to go for another onion ring. Sub Zero doesn't ever trade his ice blast on reaction, but he'll put one on the screen at certain times to "dare" you to put out a projectile and trade with him...it's more of a counterzoning thing if that makes sense.

 

[DJ L Toro]

Something I stumbled on a while ago is that if you want to find the block advantage of your projectile from full screen, you would just do this...
Full screen execution - (point blank execution - block advantage) = Block advantage from full screen

Since Laos_boy asked about Freddy's frametraps I'll use glove toss as an example...
43 - (15 - -5) = +23 after a blocked glove toss from full screen. Since hellspike is only 16 frames it is completely guaranteed.
Like some people have already mentioned, the amount of advantage you're at decreases based on how close you are to the other player.

Zoning isn't very calculated though since it depends on so many factors like who put their projectile on screen first, who has the faster projectile, whether you ducked the opponent's last projectile or blocked it, etc. It's just something you learn by feel imo.

With Sonya vs Sub Zero, he can duck her onion rings from 3/4 screen and then be able to put out an ice blast to trade if you try to go for another onion ring. Sub Zero doesn't ever trade his ice blast on reaction, but he'll put one on the screen at certain times to "dare" you to put out a projectile and trade with him...it's more of a counterzoning thing if that makes sense.

that's... essentially what i said

 

[Seapeople]

that's... essentially what i said

The way you explained everything didn't completely make sense to me, but that's not saying your way of doing it is wrong. I just figured that showing how I personally understand it might make things clearer to some people. At least it couldn't hurt

I'll add a few things really quick that I didn't mention in my last post. If you really want to understand a specific zoning situation this is one way you could look at it. I'll use Sonya's energy ring as an example for each of these.....

Full screen hit advantage =
Full screen execution - (point blank execution - point blank hit advantage)
*Sonya's Energy Ring: 44 - (20 - 12) = +36

Full screen block advantage =
Full screen execution - (point blank execution - point blank block advantage)
*Sonya's Energy Ring: 44 - (20 - -7) = +17

Full screen whiff advantage =
Full screen execution - duration
*Sonya's Energy Ring: 44 - 47 = -3

Full screen projectile trade =
Projectile 1's full screen hit advantage - Projectile 2's full screen hit advantage
*Sonya's Energy Ring vs Liu Kang's Low Fireball: 36 - 28 = +8 for Sonya / -8 for Liu Kang.
**This is assuming both projectiles hit at the exact same time. If Kang's low fireball hit 5 frames later he would only be -3. Whichever projectile hit last typically gets more advantage.

One thing you have to keep in mind is that the amount of advantage you have can't be more than the total amount of block stun or hit stun.
For example if you used these equations to figure out Reptile's full screen block advantage for an ex slowball, it would show that he's at +132. But since the ex slowball only has 28 frames of block stun, Reptile can't be at more than +28. That's probably really confusing lol
Here's a way you can find the block stun & hit stun of any attack....

Block Stun =
Duration - (startup - block advantage)
*Sonya's Energy Ring: 47 - (19 - -7) = 21 frames of block stun

Hit Stun =
Duration - (startup - hit advantage)
*Sonya's Energy Ring: 47 - (19 - 12) = 40 frames of hit stun

 

[Vagrant]

God I love the Mk community...

 

[RapZiLLa54]

One thing you have to keep in mind is that the amount of advantage you have can't be more than the total amount of block stun or hit stun.
For example if you used these equations to figure out Reptile's full screen block advantage for an ex slowball, it would show that he's at +132. But since the ex slowball only has 28 frames of block stun, Reptile can't be at more than +28. That's probably really confusing lol
Here's a way you can find the block stun & hit stun of any attack....

Would this explain the invisible wall reptile players hit sometimes when trying to follow up an EX ball with a JIP ??

 

[kanaida]

I need to know the rules of zoning. Mainly in order to improve my long range game with sonya. Can someone please explain to me the rules of projectile trades?

Like I was throwing rings at a sub zero the other day and I recovered in time to block his freeze from full screen after my ring. But then later on I tried the same thing and I got frozen. What are the rules that decide who wins a projectile trade and whether or not a player can recover in time to block when trading.

This is probably the area of MK that I'm most ignorant in, I've always just gone by "feel" when zoning.

it comes down mostly to blocking and returning fire, and knowing how many fireballs you can shoot v.s each guy and be able to safely block again. That and good use of the EX abilities to make sure you're not doing shot for shot damage and are getting more in. I always keep my eye on life bars when doing this and calculate ahead in my head. I think if you block a projectile at a distance it almost feels like you get a little more time to return fire before your opponent, maybe it just feels like it but that's when I hit hard. The trick is pressing block for a split second at the right time then doing your fireball, or letting go of block the second the projectile is blocked then firing back.

In reality though, you're sonya... you can just duck under a fireball then do the arc kick at the same time the opponent is firing his and you'll win as long as you know your spacing and you do it while he's shooting it (not too late). Fireballs can be used when outside of this range to keep the opponent busy. A good way to trick someone would be jump over their first fireball and drop kick to hit the floor a little sooner, then arc kick when they shoot their next fireball simultaneously. you're faster, but i would be cautious v.s defensive players. Nothing wrong with just ducking and waiting for bullets to stop going over your shoulders. If your timing is very good, you could even time he double shot to shoot, then duck under their fireball for the next shot (it's a guess, can't remember how far she ducks or if it was low/hi, hi/lo)

 

[kanaida]

oh, and don't ever try that v.s skarlet. she's much much faster and can hold the second shot anytime she wants, ex or not. even though it's weak, she can barrage you.

 

[DJ L Toro]

kanaida it may behoove you to read comments before posting on a specific topic... just a thought.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Is it really that simple and I'm just overthinking it?

Yep, it's just pattern and timing.But add armor too for EN.

 

[kanaida]

I did, it's fine if some people like going by the numbers. Being a programmer myself though, i'm not so convinced. It looks pretty complex and other factors could be taking place that aren't accounted for. I go by feel too, with some minor shot counting in my head to ensure I always hit and block when I should to preserve life.

Actually what I wanted to bring up is that I think if you block a projectile or certain projectiles your animation speed changes for the next fireball if done immediately, sometimes. Maybe it's just online speed changing, i'm not sure. Most noticeable i've seen sub-zero shoot a regular ice ball, block, then shoot that same fireball -faster. So i think there's more to this than meets the eye. (not his ex either)

 

[Wemfs]

recovery and advantage of fire balls on hit/block/whiff