Pardon Our Interruption - Ermac & Breaking Strings

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

One of my biggest goals with the Red Devil is learning to get between players' thoughts and moves and implementing as confusing and destructive a route of anti-routine tactics as I can, depending on my opponent's choice of warrior.
And the most practical way I can think of doing this is learning to literally get between the attacks themselves and pilfer as much momentum as possible.
Fighting against a pile of Raidens and Smokes, it seemed like the minute I started weaving between their inputs and breaking down their mixups, they got lost as a hungry baby in a titty bar, so I thought "Hmm, this could be a plan..."
So then this thread came into existance.
Somewhere for the Many to collectively share their exploits and knowings-of as far as: who's the most/least interruptable, what strings can be beaten and which characters are the most susceptible to such a strategy, and conversely what strings/characters should NEVER have such a strategy attempted on them...I want to try and figure them all out, from Scorpion to Krueger and back, or at least find some useful means of counterbalance for the majority of the cast, and making it a group effort for the rest of the Many seems like a great way to make the Punish Machine even more fine-tuned for all of us.

My Top 5 focuses right now are: Mileena, Kenshi, Nightwolf, Cyrax and Liu Kang.
But again, this I want to expand to everybody, and make a collective out of it for anyone flying under the Red flag to put to use.

Thoughts, fellow members of the Many?


ZAF says: Against Mileena: "D1 against her U4 the moment you see it coming. Since she's in the air while commiting to the move, it'll not only knock her out of it, but leave her open to a TKS and a full punish."
After regular JK-TKP BnB: "Instead of going to hit them (with a 22TKP or F4 Reset)slightly dash and sweep(b4). This will whiff and tricks the opponent into thinking they can hit you. Tks punishes on reaction if they do anything. you are safe if they wake up attack as the sweep finishes in time. If they know about this or are just cautious jip or dash grab. This works because you make yourself look punishable while being safe."

 

[zaf]

So weird, I started a project like this 2 nights ago because jer(mileena) said ermac was not a tourney winner. I decided to do this to stop players momentum and score lifts off their mistakes . I know the mileena mu like the back of my hand. Ill contribute to this. The thing is, just not creating a pattern that players will punish when we are always interupting them.

We can use frame data guides of all the characters to literally find out what we can punish. This will help us see what our eyes cannot

Ill start off with something small but I love it. You can d1 mileenas u4 to avoid being hit and hit her out of the move, best part is that while she does this she is considered to be in the air, so when you d1 her she will fall out the air to the ground. This also means you can d1 her u4 into tks. It is things like this that will make ermac better.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Ill start off with something small but I love it. You can d1 mileenas u4 to avoid being hit and hit her out of the move, best part is that while she does this she is considered to be in the air, so when you d1 her she will fall out the air to the ground. This also means you can d1 her u4 into tks. It is things like this that will make ermac better.

See? THATS what I'm talking about, my friend.
Adding it to the list.
I know the data and matchups and pages to endeavor through are out there, but I figured since Ermac's basically an Edenian Submission Machine and his punishment tools are some of, if not THE, best in the game, a collection of all his best individual ways to make an opponent submit, person by person by fool singular person, would be ideal.

I find Ermac's a lot like Sub-Zero...in that WALKING with him puzzles the fucking hell out of some people.
Especially rushdown combo machines like Liu & Smoke? Taking an easy pace and stepping in and away from them while they start charging with 3D12's or B312's...D1, D3, Standing 22, another D3, 31 to interrupt whatever they were doing, but don't add on the 2 so you have time to duck and block in case they try and start you low...unlike Subby, Mac has a lot more ways to protect himself if he goes it slow, so it's a lot less stressful a pace.

I'm telling you guys. Walk. Give yourself time to break into an opponent, even if it's just in a little way.
Never underestimate the value of getting under someone's skin.

 

[zaf]

Ive been using b2 cancels to get around lately, just to test it but holy shit does walking really work well.

This isnt character specific but just a trick I have. Go for the normal bnb, after the teleport you can either 22tkp or reset right? I have b2 set ups here but also something new/tricky/gimmicky. Instead of going to hit them slightly dash and sweep(b4). This will whiff and tricks the opponent into thinking they can hit you. Tks punishes on reaction if they do anything. you are safe if they wake up attack as the sweep finishes in time. If they know about this or are just cautious jip or dash grab. This works because you make yourself look punishable while being safe. I think this is what ermac is about

Also there are a lot of characters wake up games that can be exploited with cross over jik~iafb


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[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

It's NUTS, right? I had no idea such a simple thing could have such useful effects. So happy ~^-^~.
I wonder, oh I wonder, how many different mindfucks can come out of this...how many different cast members are even more susceptible to Red Devil punishment if he's really taking his time...this must be explored.

 

[KamikazeJD]

Ive been using b2 cancels to get around lately, just to test it but holy shit does walking really work well.

This isnt character specific but just a trick I have. Go for the normal bnb, after the teleport you can either 22tkp or reset right? I have b2 set ups here but also something new/tricky/gimmicky. Instead of going to hit them slightly dash and sweep(b4). This will whiff and tricks the opponent into thinking they can hit you. Tks punishes on reaction if they do anything. you are safe if they wake up attack as the sweep finishes in time. If they know about this or are just cautious jip or dash grab. This works because you make yourself look punishable while being safe. I think this is what ermac is about

Also there are a lot of characters wake up games that can be exploited with cross over jik~iafb


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yea zaf, ive noticed that too. But honestly after pretty much and of his pokes that have wiffed (purposely or not) shoot a tkp. If I feel im in the area to d4 an opponent and I accidently miss I almost always go for tkp. This honestly is a big mind fuck and helpful for us in the poke game. His d1 and d4 are awesome as is d3. So dash in and d1, dash d1, dash d4 d3,d1 backdash tkp. And if they start getting too crazy with pokes u4 usually wins a poke battle.

Im not too great at explaining when and how to poke out of certain strings, but I kno that kitanas cutter, which alot of them use as a cancel, if you duck/low block the beginning of the attack the second half can be uppercutted or poked out of brcause it hits high.

 

[zaf]

after whiffed moves tkp is definately a good choice safer then tks, but more damage and potential resets. All depends on the player and your reads. Most of the time you can punish on reaction with tks so why not.

As for the poke game and tkp I already use this.you can even check in your evo thread sage leviathan mentions in his play against me that he noticed me doing this. It really does safe u on whiffs. And I am a fan of u4 in poke wars. I play mileena the most so I am used to having to use this.

Something new ive been doing in poke wars is iafb. Safe on block, advantage on hit. So like d4 dash in iafb. Or using it in place of u4

Im aware of kitanas strings and take advantage of this as well.

 

[KamikazeJD]

Blocked iafb sets alot up for ermac. Do we get advantage at all on block? Or just hit?

 

[zaf]

A blocked iafb leaves us at frame 0. We are not at advantage nor are we at disadvantage.
On hit we have advantage of roughly +21 frames. Which is holy shit amazing.

=]

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

that doesn't make sense... if I block you in the air... and we are at neutral frames... then technically I can poke you before you land. I mean... it takes time for you to land off the iathingy.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

A blocked iafb leaves us at frame 0. We are not at advantage nor are we at disadvantage.
On hit we have advantage of roughly +21 frames. Which is holy shit amazing.

=]

+21???
Oh, that's just delicious.
Imagine the tricks you can play on an unaware rush-in-for-the-kill opponent.
"Ooh, blocked his thingy, I think I'll run in and...FUCK, where did that TKS come from??"
*total obliteration*

Any other unusual frame advantages you guys know of against anyone? Things that wouldn't otherwise get noticed?

 

[zaf]

Sub_Crash4

If i am in front of you and do a iafb, i am barely in the air. by the time i do land i am safe.
there is also pushback pushing you away from me.

i am not high up in the air.

also yes thats exactly it boxy. if people rush on you, lift them.
if you do another iafb and they respect the tks, shit on them
dash grab, start a block string, do another iafb ( ppl love this one) etc.

also boxy, i get alot of my ideas from the ermac data thread created by somberness.
take another deeper look at it, now that you like ermac

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Ok fair enough. I'm just thinking out loud here. This stuff is hard to test without another human being right beside me. If I crouch block iafb, I feel that I can at least get a poke before you land... even Kabal is prone.

 

[STORMS]

Is it just me or when you see a high level Kabal via REO or michaelangelo you think... "Wow, Ermac has no chance.."

 

[Metzos]

Is it just me or when you see a high level Kabal via REO or michaelangelo you think... "Wow, Ermac has no chance.."

Nah its just you. From what i m starting to think Kabal is certainly a bad MU for Ermac but not as bad as many ppl think. With enough patience you might be able to win the match if you play smart too. Mileena's U4 is like Ermac's U4. Both can be poked out or punished with fast specials or uppercuts.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Is it just me or when you see a high level Kabal via REO or michaelangelo you think... "Wow, Ermac has no chance.."

I used to. I could never see the hope in that fight.
But as of late, after watching I don't fucking know how many Reo/Warda/Master D/Michaelangelo matches, I think with enough practice against a reputable Kabal, it could definitely be done.
My Kabal strategy is kind of like 16 Bit's Kitana play strategy - stick to the safe, secure destructive means, and if that's the case against Kabt, a LOT can be said for being able to eat a third of his life bar every time you can read an NDC, TP behind iAGB (not the smartest idea, but definitely doable), poke under a blockstring, etc...all it takes is a Lift and some proper evasion, especially if you can get him to burn his Meter. And that's not even counting how they react to being reset with an F4 or knocked across the screen with the 2 2 TKP.
Granted, it is nooooooooowhere near that simple when actually fighting the fight, but think about it for a moment and tell me it doesn't at least SOUND like a reasonable idea. I know I don't have enough experience in the field to call it a definite, but I'm gonna be looking for some legit Kabals to fight to test it out.

Reo knows I'm deathly afraid of crossing his path, though. But it's not Kabal I'm that afraid of, not anymore.

 

[zaf]

I have tested iafb on standing and crouching opponents who jabbed or poked out. Using characters with the fastest ones and could always block on time. Ive also done it at various angles and unless you miss you cant be poked out. A few times i missed slighty and was poked right.

Not to mention the random pushback that happens making you out of range from being hit out. I believe the push back happens th closer you are to them ? Anyone know ?

If someone can get it to happen it would be something id like to see actually.

 

[KamikazeJD]

Anybody can beat anyone. Dont fear them. They are also only mortals

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I wonder...if I time a near-full B2, and he's about to commit to a Dash - not an EX, just a regular one - will I win the trade?
Like, let's say he has no Bars and I try to bait him into it, and he, thinking I'm gonna cancel and dash back, decides to Dash and instead, I'm a few paces ahead of where he was expecting me to be and he runs into the Charge, will it knock him out of the Dash? Because if that's the case, that'd mean even if he was intending on Cancelling out in front of me and going into an F32 or an overhead, where he would land after hitting the Cancel might still get him Charged in the face.
It's a bold move, but any tool to have against Kabal is a good one, especially one that can combo if successful.

 

[KamikazeJD]

^ if he stops in front of you he should ge hit because he has to block. I dont see it trading at all tho. B2 will lose

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Oh, almost certainly. But you never know when such a trick will come in handy if overlooked.

Goddamned Kabals. -_-