Speculosity
Noob
So for some reason, my previous thread about Black Canary got moved from the Black Canary forum to the general forum. But I wanted to get your opinions as BC mains.
Here's the copy of what I said:
"To be honest, I'm not sure this will actually reach the people that decide character changes, but I felt I had to do something as I don't want to just sit back and miss a chance to really help this character. I ask that the mods of this forum please pass on this thread to the appropriate devs. I would be so grateful.
As one of the 10 black canary mains in this game, she's not an easy character to use in some cases relative to the rest of the cast, considering most of her attacks are unsafe and short ranged giving her a poor approach. She is really forced to get in the opponent's personal bubble outwitting whatever higher ranged and safer moves/abilities they have in order to trap them in her great mixup, oki, and reset game where she shines.
I generally accept this playstyle of having to work to get that initial damage in, however she still does have UNNECESSARY glaring weaknesses within this playstyle that I feel are not actually being addressed by most of the proposed buffs.
I'll start by giving an opinion on each one said on stream, then explain my proposals:
- 112 will be safe and the 1+3 will be a command grab. Because of black canary's current move set, there is little reason for an opponent to NOT always crouch block unless you're in the air, AFTER blocking a 2 or AFTER you see her df3ing at you. She has no quick INITIAL overhead attacks to worry about. And because of her lack of pressure strings (as in safe strings that she can stop before finishing with fast recovery to bait a poke then enter another string, like catwoman or batman), there's a much wider window for opponents to poke without getting punished, so psychologically they will be more attack heavy with things like their d1's. These 2 things mean that this string will get very little true viable usage outside of a combo ender as an opponent has little reason to not be preemptively ducking and d1ing which would punish that initial high attack.
Obviously it's not that this change isn't positive objectively, but I feel that it wouldn't really help her cohesively with the limitations of the rest of her moveset and playstyle.
- 33 is SLIGHTLY advantageous. The "slightly" is the key word I noticed. Because she has no other pressure/safe strings, If it's not advantageous enough to allow her to safely do an attack afterwards, then there's little reason to use it over another move like 2 outside of combos except to whiff punish. This isn't a useless change, as it would grant her a few more extra pixels of faster range to whiff punish over say her 2. But if it's only a slight advantage, considering the rest of her moveset and playstyle, it would have minimal effect.
- Her cartwheel attacks will have more pushback and/or be safe on block. This would help her be a little more safe on block after doing a 2 mixup without having to sacrifice her trait, so that's great. Depending on the specifics of it, it may also give her somewhat of an approach. This was a great decision.
- Her b12 will do more damage and is safe on block. This is nice, but considering the slow speed and relatively short range of it, and how the b1 is mainly used to combo, I don't think it will enhance her noticeably unless the recovery on whiff is reduced as well.
The reason I made this thread was, while some of these things are nice, besides the cartwheel changes, I don't believe they truly help her considering the rest of her moveset stats and playstyle based on it.
My proposed changes are simple, would gel with her playstyle, and I feel will give her a small step more towards many characters with safer and higher ranged moves, without making her overpowered considering she does have a great mixup/oki/reset:
- Make her b1 faster. Canary's main weakness is her neutral game and approach. That ability to initially get that hit on a blocking or open opponent to eventually do damage or start combos. As I said before, I accept this weakness relative to her strengths. However this weakness is a little too deep. Because of her overall relatively low range with lack of approach, whiff punishes are one of her primary ways to start damage. This attack is generally her go to for whiff punishing since it can combo into db3. But at 16 frames, it's difficult to punish that whiffed jump-in or string that any other character could do, including a similar styled character like flash. I feel that this should have enhanced speed to allow her to whiff attacks better into combos.
Because she doesn't have any initial fast overheads, this wouldn't make her harder to react to, as a good player would mostly be crouching close to her anyway, but it would allow her to get that initial damage in a bit easier considering her playstyle. So this wouldn't make her overpowered.
- Make her lvl 1 canary cry a mid. You guys said on stream that you wanted to give some use to more moves that were unsafe, well this one is it. Now because of the cartwheel changes, this might not be as much of a priority in my opinion but it's worth saying as this move is useless if speaking optimal use of her moveset. When using Canary's knee (2) mixups, I'd say it's good practice to use her scream afterward in order to combo if it hits (lvl 2 or 3) or allow you to be safe on block. It's excellent for that as well as the long range attack/punish. But her lvl 1 is a high, meaning that the opponent can duck it. So If you remember my point before regarding the 112 changes, there's no real way you would connect this attack on anyone decent outside of a corner combo, in which case there are way better options that are more damaging and won't use up her trait.
You can even even make it minus (but still safe) on block if you want, not that slightly plus moves have much use to her considering the rest of her moveset.
- Make forward 1 a mid. This is another move that's generally useless in neutral. If this was a mid, it would enhance her ability to initially get a touch on an opponent, blocking or not. One of The best tactics to fight Canary is just to walk back. She lacks many approach options. Because the move is relatively slow 16 frames, I believe it makes it fair to allow her to have this when opponents are playing keep away just outside her reach. Since I'm not at my game, I don't remember if there were pokable gaps in the f122 string, but if there is, it would also be worth fixing that.
I feel that while it should be difficult to approach as Canary considering her strengths, it's a tad too difficult against characters with great keep away and fast walk speeds. Flash has about the same range for his mixups, but he has an extremely fast dash speed to compensate. I wouldn't propose to make Canary's dash as fast as his, since he is the fastest man alive, but she needs something to help bridge the gap between mid and close distance.
Hopefully the changes made weren't set in stone, but I'm hoping you'd take a look at this to help make her a better, but not overpowered character.
Thanks for reading."
Here's the copy of what I said:
"To be honest, I'm not sure this will actually reach the people that decide character changes, but I felt I had to do something as I don't want to just sit back and miss a chance to really help this character. I ask that the mods of this forum please pass on this thread to the appropriate devs. I would be so grateful.
As one of the 10 black canary mains in this game, she's not an easy character to use in some cases relative to the rest of the cast, considering most of her attacks are unsafe and short ranged giving her a poor approach. She is really forced to get in the opponent's personal bubble outwitting whatever higher ranged and safer moves/abilities they have in order to trap them in her great mixup, oki, and reset game where she shines.
I generally accept this playstyle of having to work to get that initial damage in, however she still does have UNNECESSARY glaring weaknesses within this playstyle that I feel are not actually being addressed by most of the proposed buffs.
I'll start by giving an opinion on each one said on stream, then explain my proposals:
- 112 will be safe and the 1+3 will be a command grab. Because of black canary's current move set, there is little reason for an opponent to NOT always crouch block unless you're in the air, AFTER blocking a 2 or AFTER you see her df3ing at you. She has no quick INITIAL overhead attacks to worry about. And because of her lack of pressure strings (as in safe strings that she can stop before finishing with fast recovery to bait a poke then enter another string, like catwoman or batman), there's a much wider window for opponents to poke without getting punished, so psychologically they will be more attack heavy with things like their d1's. These 2 things mean that this string will get very little true viable usage outside of a combo ender as an opponent has little reason to not be preemptively ducking and d1ing which would punish that initial high attack.
Obviously it's not that this change isn't positive objectively, but I feel that it wouldn't really help her cohesively with the limitations of the rest of her moveset and playstyle.
- 33 is SLIGHTLY advantageous. The "slightly" is the key word I noticed. Because she has no other pressure/safe strings, If it's not advantageous enough to allow her to safely do an attack afterwards, then there's little reason to use it over another move like 2 outside of combos except to whiff punish. This isn't a useless change, as it would grant her a few more extra pixels of faster range to whiff punish over say her 2. But if it's only a slight advantage, considering the rest of her moveset and playstyle, it would have minimal effect.
- Her cartwheel attacks will have more pushback and/or be safe on block. This would help her be a little more safe on block after doing a 2 mixup without having to sacrifice her trait, so that's great. Depending on the specifics of it, it may also give her somewhat of an approach. This was a great decision.
- Her b12 will do more damage and is safe on block. This is nice, but considering the slow speed and relatively short range of it, and how the b1 is mainly used to combo, I don't think it will enhance her noticeably unless the recovery on whiff is reduced as well.
The reason I made this thread was, while some of these things are nice, besides the cartwheel changes, I don't believe they truly help her considering the rest of her moveset stats and playstyle based on it.
My proposed changes are simple, would gel with her playstyle, and I feel will give her a small step more towards many characters with safer and higher ranged moves, without making her overpowered considering she does have a great mixup/oki/reset:
- Make her b1 faster. Canary's main weakness is her neutral game and approach. That ability to initially get that hit on a blocking or open opponent to eventually do damage or start combos. As I said before, I accept this weakness relative to her strengths. However this weakness is a little too deep. Because of her overall relatively low range with lack of approach, whiff punishes are one of her primary ways to start damage. This attack is generally her go to for whiff punishing since it can combo into db3. But at 16 frames, it's difficult to punish that whiffed jump-in or string that any other character could do, including a similar styled character like flash. I feel that this should have enhanced speed to allow her to whiff attacks better into combos.
Because she doesn't have any initial fast overheads, this wouldn't make her harder to react to, as a good player would mostly be crouching close to her anyway, but it would allow her to get that initial damage in a bit easier considering her playstyle. So this wouldn't make her overpowered.
- Make her lvl 1 canary cry a mid. You guys said on stream that you wanted to give some use to more moves that were unsafe, well this one is it. Now because of the cartwheel changes, this might not be as much of a priority in my opinion but it's worth saying as this move is useless if speaking optimal use of her moveset. When using Canary's knee (2) mixups, I'd say it's good practice to use her scream afterward in order to combo if it hits (lvl 2 or 3) or allow you to be safe on block. It's excellent for that as well as the long range attack/punish. But her lvl 1 is a high, meaning that the opponent can duck it. So If you remember my point before regarding the 112 changes, there's no real way you would connect this attack on anyone decent outside of a corner combo, in which case there are way better options that are more damaging and won't use up her trait.
You can even even make it minus (but still safe) on block if you want, not that slightly plus moves have much use to her considering the rest of her moveset.
- Make forward 1 a mid. This is another move that's generally useless in neutral. If this was a mid, it would enhance her ability to initially get a touch on an opponent, blocking or not. One of The best tactics to fight Canary is just to walk back. She lacks many approach options. Because the move is relatively slow 16 frames, I believe it makes it fair to allow her to have this when opponents are playing keep away just outside her reach. Since I'm not at my game, I don't remember if there were pokable gaps in the f122 string, but if there is, it would also be worth fixing that.
I feel that while it should be difficult to approach as Canary considering her strengths, it's a tad too difficult against characters with great keep away and fast walk speeds. Flash has about the same range for his mixups, but he has an extremely fast dash speed to compensate. I wouldn't propose to make Canary's dash as fast as his, since he is the fastest man alive, but she needs something to help bridge the gap between mid and close distance.
Hopefully the changes made weren't set in stone, but I'm hoping you'd take a look at this to help make her a better, but not overpowered character.
Thanks for reading."
