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Match-up Discussion MMH vs Zatanna

Which is a worse matchup for Zatanna

  • MMH

    Votes: 4 33.3%

  • Aquaman

    Votes: 8 66.7%
  • Total voters
    12
KillaGthug4Life

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
This is undoubtably the worst matchup for Zatanna. The Aquaman matchup is more on the 4-6 side after more tech that I've found and just the different/more cautious game style Zatanna has to play. MMH however is at best 2-8.

MMH can hop around freely with no worries, if Zatanna hucks a ring to knock this mother fucker out of the air, then "oh tits" he slips into a teleport on read for a full combo punish. And god forbid the S.O.B is near an intractable because that's near 40-50% combo for about one bar. Well say Z just walks back and blocks, aight that's cool, yet there is no possible way to punish teleport except with an excellent MBB3 read on reaction. Dash doesn't work... a well timed teleport doesn't work...

Which remeinds me! Zatanna has absolutely no methods of building meter. Can't teleport because it gets his by MMH teleport (that shit is unpunishable and tracks). Can't throw a ring cause that nearly inevitably leads to a full combo punish. So there goes Zatanna's entire meter building game. So there goes large damage via vortex, cause Zatanna is a raging meterburning whore.

The only safe zoning we can do is an occasional puppet master or mb ring, which happens to cost meter that we don't have. Zatanna's up close game is pretty crappy, MMH pressure is bullshit and guess what: we don't have meter to pushblock.

So the only meter Z builds is from eating a combo and spare occasional rings or teleports. Therefore I do not see in what possible stretch of the imagination that MMH has to work harder in this matchup other than "taxingly" pressing the teleport button in reaction to a ring toss or teleport.

I am, in fact, at a loss of finding any saving grace for the magician in this matchup. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

@Shaazzyam
 
Shaazzyam

Shaazzyam

undefeated online evo champion
I did say MMH has to work harder in the MU, and that's because I'm the only one who gets to push buttons. As a Zatanna player you're just getting bodied on every part of the screen, which takes no effort.

Anyway, there's not much I can tell you guys. I picked up Batman so there could be some glimmer of hope at MMH'S dominant mus like this, but that's not really working out either for you Zatanna players. Like idk... who does Zatnna body? I'll pick up that character and maybe play with my feet or something to make it fair for you all.<3
 
Phosferrax

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Yep it sucks bad. He can literally just jump back and react to anything she does, it's grim.

I am intrigued by the claims of this tech against WaterDick.
 
DarkFire*

DarkFire*

Your halo is mine.
(Yes I know I'm late but I still thought I'd chime in on this :p I'm also creating a matchup chart for funsies as we speak and I have this matchup listed as 3-7 while Aquaman is 2-8... In all honesty I feel the Aquaman matchup is far worse. For many, many reasons. But since we're talking about MMH and not Aquaman, I won't go there until I post my MU chart later)

I will definitely say though that MMH is her second hardest matchup. However, it's not hopeless like Aquaman is. Unlike Aquaman, you can actually perform combos on MMH, and trait actually isn't useless. He has to respect it. If he OH teleports you do lightning cage on reaction. If he doesn't, just keep throwing trait shots to build meter and get chip damage (though he could simply do a pillar and force you to block it, but if you feel he's going to do this you could possibly teleport [MB or non] behind him and attack with 3 into the OTG. I haven't tested this yet). Also, MMH can't "hop around freely with no worries". But you are right, you would be wise to avoid throwing rings against him to catch him out of the air as he could teleport at anytime. However, if we suspect he's going to jump/air dash near us, I've found that Zatanna's d2 will usually catch him in which case you can then do 3 into Puppet Master. If you have meter then MB it and begin your vortex. Also, if you can react to his OH Teleport, then that will be a great asset to you in this matchup, as everytime you have meter you could MBB3 it into a d2 and begin your vortex that way as well. It can be challenging to do this, but with practice it can be done. I myself fairly consistently MBB3 it on reaction; I just wait for the animation of him to phase through the ground; at that point I already input the MBB3 and I get a punish/vortex attempt. Speaking of which, MMH has to guess just like everyone else once Zatanna gets her vortex started, and this is where she can give him problems. I'll admit it's pretty difficult starting it on him, but once you do the matchup really isn't that bad to be considered 2-8. I agree you will want to avoid zoning when you don't have trait (or if you do be VERY smart and careful about it), but considering Zatanna gets her trait back almost instantly, this isn't that much of an issue. Also, the whole cast has to deal with his interactable one bar 50% combo, not just Zatanna.

I also personally feel that while Zatanna is primarily a zoning character, this is not to say that her upclose game is horrible. She is actually decent up close. Of course she would prefer to zone, but in a matchup like this where she really can't (unless she's in trait) then you will have to fight up close. Yes Martian beats her up close but she can still get good punishes in, for example you can d1 into MB kicks to punish his low grab, or you can interrupt the string where he punches you twice and spins his arm around for a 3rd punch (dunno what that string is) with 112. Or if you're both blocking each other and you're in each other's faces, use the d1 vortex (d1 divekick or d1 MB kicks). All of these can potentially lead into a vortex which is your best chance of winning.

But yeah, this matchup is hard no doubt. Just not 2-8 hard. That's Aquaman. lol
 
KillaGthug4Life

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
DarkFire* said:
(Yes I know I'm late but I still thought I'd chime in on this :p I'm also creating a matchup chart for funsies as we speak and I have this matchup listed as 3-7 while Aquaman is 2-8... In all honesty I feel the Aquaman matchup is far worse. For many, many reasons. But since we're talking about MMH and not Aquaman, I won't go there until I post my MU chart later)

I will definitely say though that MMH is her second hardest matchup. However, it's not hopeless like Aquaman is. Unlike Aquaman, you can actually perform combos on MMH, and trait actually isn't useless. He has to respect it. If he OH teleports you do lightning cage on reaction. If he doesn't, just keep throwing trait shots to build meter and get chip damage (though he could simply do a pillar and force you to block it, but if you feel he's going to do this you could possibly teleport [MB or non] behind him and attack with 3 into the OTG. I haven't tested this yet). Also, MMH can't "hop around freely with no worries". But you are right, you would be wise to avoid throwing rings against him to catch him out of the air as he could teleport at anytime. However, if we suspect he's going to jump/air dash near us, I've found that Zatanna's d2 will usually catch him in which case you can then do 3 into Puppet Master. If you have meter then MB it and begin your vortex. Also, if you can react to his OH Teleport, then that will be a great asset to you in this matchup, as everytime you have meter you could MBB3 it into a d2 and begin your vortex that way as well. It can be challenging to do this, but with practice it can be done. I myself fairly consistently MBB3 it on reaction; I just wait for the animation of him to phase through the ground; at that point I already input the MBB3 and I get a punish/vortex attempt. Speaking of which, MMH has to guess just like everyone else once Zatanna gets her vortex started, and this is where she can give him problems. I'll admit it's pretty difficult starting it on him, but once you do the matchup really isn't that bad to be considered 2-8. I agree you will want to avoid zoning when you don't have trait (or if you do be VERY smart and careful about it), but considering Zatanna gets her trait back almost instantly, this isn't that much of an issue. Also, the whole cast has to deal with his interactable one bar 50% combo, not just Zatanna.

I also personally feel that while Zatanna is primarily a zoning character, this is not to say that her upclose game is horrible. She is actually decent up close. Of course she would prefer to zone, but in a matchup like this where she really can't (unless she's in trait) then you will have to fight up close. Yes Martian beats her up close but she can still get good punishes in, for example you can d1 into MB kicks to punish his low grab, or you can interrupt the string where he punches you twice and spins his arm around for a 3rd punch (dunno what that string is) with 112. Or if you're both blocking each other and you're in each other's faces, use the d1 vortex (d1 divekick or d1 MB kicks). All of these can potentially lead into a vortex which is your best chance of winning.

But yeah, this matchup is hard no doubt. Just not 2-8 hard. That's Aquaman. lol
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Thanks! I appreciate the tips. I think MMH is just an extremely exucation reaction heavy matchup, and I play almost entirely online which makes the reaction a tiddle bit more difficult :-/.

As for Aquaman here's a very very very helpful trick: levitate at its highest point and a little below goes above his from the deep trident. On from the deep whif, zatanna can teleport behind for a punish with dive if timed correctly (mb can punish with j3 into dive). So! This is a great method to build the meter and after kicks Zatanna can teleport behind for her mixups (ie: teleport behind ji3 crossup into mas damage, or d1u3, or b23. Normal teleport into pressure is escapeable, mb teleport into pressure is very difficult to escape from). Basically, this will ultimately encourage Aquaman to use trait, and if not sall good we have good option for damage. Of course if we knock him into a combo he has to trait up, and our post puppet master options are excellent: if he stand jumps then dash in standing 3 into puppet master, or f21 (it's an excellent anti air and ground them), or teleport behind into pressure, or try to ring and knock them out of a jump. Basically it's our big chance to get him into the vortex goodies.

DO NOT underestimate the use of ji3 into kicks, then dash under for the quick stand reset. Takes a lot of Aquaman players by surprise. Thoughts?
 
kevkopdx

kevkopdx

Noob
i tend to agree with @DarkFire* on this one... i think aquaman is completely unwinnable in the right hands... punishing with levi after anticipating a ground trident is good, but aquaman doesnt really need to be throwing those out unless its a punish... at least with mmh mbb3 can counter his teleport and his push wakeup can be reversed and punished... its not a lot but its more than what you can do vs Aquaman.... oddly i think the aquaman mu is more fun lol

edit: like darkfire, im finding it easier to pull off punishing mmh oh, at full screen i more or less keep my eyes on mmh and do it on reaction
 
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kevkopdx

kevkopdx

Noob
EMPEROR_SunFire said:
IMO MMH is 2-8 but Aquaman is nowhere near 4-6 tho >_< I'd say Aquaman is 3-7
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curious why you think so? i think the main difference is that if you can start a combo, you can at least finish it against mmh... getting in on aquaman is tough(as is mmh) but once you do, aquaman traits up.
 
EMPRESS_SunFire

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
kevkopdx said:
curious why you think so? i think the main difference is that if you can start a combo, you can at least finish it against mmh... getting in on aquaman is tough(as is mmh) but once you do, aquaman traits up.
Click to expand...
Well hitting MMH is as hard, but if MMH hits you his combos do more damage sometimes and he can still oki you, unlike Aquaman, also if Aquaman wastes his trait you can at least hit him and vortex him with J3, althought this is sooo hard I think mmh has an even easier time destroying her lol.
 
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