[Matchup Discussion] Cyborg vs. Dr. Fate living guide

[Protagonist_1]

[Matchup Discussion] Cyborg vs. Dr. Fate living guide (Last edit: 6//2017)

The goal of this thread is to not just discuss the matchup, but to go highly in detail of nearly all possible scenarios when going against Dr. Fate and all the options against each. This thread is meant so that any Cyborg player will have a general gameplan to go through the match, so that making the right decisions whether in neutral, or under pressure, can be made. I hope that matchup threads like these will be used in other character forums to provide better detail for future matchup discussion.

Keep in mind, this is not set and stone. With patches, and further reevalutation from other Cyborg players and Dr. Fate players, this will be updated. I plan to do this for every character in the game for Cyborg, and we as a Cyborg community should go in depth for all options to have the best chance at winning. #TEAMBOOYAH

BUTTON NOTATION [I don’t know the xbox notation so someone help me out here]
1 = square,
2=triangle,
3=X,
4=circle,

UNDERSTANTING RANGE SYSTEM:

Range 0: (point blank range)
Range 1: (area from one backdash away)
Range 2: (area from two backdashes way)
Range 3: (area from three backdashes away)
Range 4: (area from four backdashes away)
Range 5: (area from five backdashes away)
Range 6: (Full screen, will be regarded as such)

The range system is essential to know what you as a Cyborg player should be doing or to look out for at each range of the matchup. This is to break down the matchup easier and to evaluate each option.

GENERAL GAMEPLAN SUMMARY [Subject to change based on player discussion]:

Dr. Fate is a zoner with fast traveling projectile (Amon Ra blast), a force push (Glyph of Osiris), and several other tools to keep the opponent at bay. The goal is to establish an early life lead, stay within ranges 0-3 in neutral to get favorable trades with Nova blast, and eventually get close enough to land a devastating combo and establish oki. Pushing fate to the corner and keeping him there with TA and Roomba setups are also essential to tipping the matchup to your favor. Once fate is in the corner, DO NOT LET HIM OUT. Make him work for it!!!

NORMALS (All notes consist at range 0)

Video Reference:

-Standing 1 [7 frame startup/-2 on block/hit advantage +20]

• IF HIT: respect the next follow up, look out for grab
• IF BLOCKED: check with d1
• Fate's fastest poke is 6 frames, 6+2= 8 so check with anything under 8 frames that is safe, hence d1

-Standing 2 [11 frame startup/ -9 on block/ hit advantage +25]

• IF HIT: respect the next follow up, look out for grab, or even f3/neutral jump due to how plus it is
• IF BLOCKED: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 PF, d1 PF, or for more damage 11xxbounce cancel

-Standing 3 [12 frame startup/ -4 on block/ hit advantage +44]

• On block, it pushes back the opponent to sweep range.
• On hit, leads to knockdown (back to range 1)

-d1 [6 frame startup /-2 on block/ hit advantage +13]

• IF BLOCK: Cyborg’s d1 is guaranteed unless special canceled
• IF HIT: all follow up pressure under 20 frames by Dr. Fate is guaranteed (including Fate’s grab)
• Has extremely short range. If Cyborg blocks a d1 and walks back, the next d1 will whiff and you can whiff punish with d1 (must be anticipated). Leads to shimmy options.
• COUNTERPOKE: If Cyborg does a d1 and stands in neutral (or walks back) Fate’s d1 will whiff. This opens up some interesting counterpoking/shimmy options

-d2 [10 frame startup/ -16 on block/ hit advantage +59]

• IF HIT: Launches, just take the damage, air tech only if your on death's door
• IF BLOCK: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 PF into setup, keep him close and continue pressure
• SPECIAL CANCELLED ON BLOCK: Can be special cancelled to Glyph of Osiris making it safe

-d3 [12 frame startup/ -12 on block/hit advantage +15/ HKD]

• RANGE: Max distance is just short range 1
• HITBOX: Extended hitbox that can hit the opponent out of the air
• PUSHBACK ON BLOCK: Has minimal to no pushback on block
• IF HIT: Hard knockdown, cannot tech roll. Expect a jump in, f2 meaty, or f3
• IF BLOCKED: Punish with d1 EX PF into setup, Standing 3 EX PF XX TA (F2 after EX PF will not reach)
• NOTE: The move has a lot of blockstun. Be sure to wait for his hands to begin to recede before punishing, otherwise the game will eat your input and nothing will come out

-b1 [9 frame start up/ -21 on block/hit advantage +3]

• APPEARANCE: Raises his arm back and gives off a blue aurora
• ON HIT:
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable, Punish with 12b2 EX PF into setup, or 11XXbounce cancel/Standing 3 bounce cancel for damage
• OTHER: The follow up string with b1 leads into and low/overhead. So if you see the blue aroma, block low, then high. Both the low and overhead are full combo punishable (more in the "string" section)

-b2 [10 frame start up/ -2 on block/launcher]

• APPEARANCE: Raises has arm and gives off a yellow ground beam (looks like b1, but remember the color, yellow means caution, blue means punish)
• HITBOX: Has a rather high air hitbox as well (can catch the opponent out the air)
• ON HIT: Launches
• ON BLOCK: Cyborg can check with d1, if not special canceled

-b3 [29 startup/+5 on block/ hit advantage (launcher)]

• RANGE: Max range hits between range 1-2 (1.5)
• ON BLOCK: Best to block after this. Post f2 beats all options at range 0, only option is to grapple

-f1 [N/A]

-f2 [-12 on block/ start up 9/ hit advantage +10]

• APPEARANCE: quickly charges forward with a bluegreen arora
• ON HIT: Best to block, commonly canceled into GOS which sends the opponent to range 3 (if EX then full screen). Any followup that is less than 16 frames is guaranteed, unless a high.
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 EX PF into setup
• NOTE/SPECIAL: This move is commonly cancelled into GOS, making it safe. This is what makes f2 on block difficult to want to punish (layers of yomi involved)

-F3 [33 frame startup/ +6 on block/ hit advantage (launcher)]

• RANGE: Max reach is at range 2
• ON BLOCK: f2 is the most common option after this, and must be respected (you can grapple out however)

STRINGS
*asterisk means there is a gap

-11 [+1 on block/+18 on hit]

• ON HIT: Any normal less than 24 frames, unless a high, must be respected. Look for grab
• ON BLOCK: d1 by fate is guaranteed, however unsure if it reaches (TEST)
• OTHER: First part is a high, can be d2 or d1 poked out off

-112 [-13 on block/ bounce state on hit/ overhead]

• ON HIT:
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 EX PF into setup, keep fate close

-11*3 [-14 on block/ send opponent 3/4ths screen]

• ON HIT: Delay wakeup to avoid Amon Ra follow up, avoid tech roll to not push yourself farther away
• ON BLOCK: Can be punished with f2 PF for damage, or for an easier punish 12b2 PF.
• OTHER: The 3 part can be held and he can cancel it forward or backwards.

-b1*d3 [-19 on block/ +14 on hit/ sends opponent to range 1-2/low]

• ON HIT: Delay wakeup to avoid meaty Amon Ra blast, avoid tech roll to lessen the gap in space. Only wakeup with NB if you read an Displacer Orb
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 EX PF, Standing 3 EX PF, or for damage 11XXBC or 3XXBC

-b1*d3*2 [-17 on block/ launches on hit/ send opponent to range 2]

• ON HIT: Delay wakeup to avoid meaty Amon Ra blast, avoid tech roll to lessen the gap in space. Only wakeup with NB if you read an Displacer Orb
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 EX PF, Standing 3 EX PF, or for damage 11XXBC or 3XXBC

-b1*d3*u3 [-24 on block/+15 on hit HKD/ overhead]

• ON HIT: Hardknock down, leaves you at Fate's feet at range 0. Watch for grab, meaty f2, jump attacks, or f3
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 EX PF, Standing 3 EX PF, or for damage 11XXBC or 3XXBC or f2XXBC
• OTHER: String can be done in neutral, so if you see b1,d3 stand block
• OTHER: Keep in mind this a mid, low, overhead string.

-211 [-21 on block/ +11 on hit [knockdown]]

• ON HIT: Expect grab, jump atttack, f3, etc.
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable. Punish with 12b2 EX PF, Standing 3 EX PF, or for damage 11XXBC or 3XXBC or f2XXBC

-f2u3

• only comes out on hit

SPECIALS:

Amon Ra Blast [start up 14/ -17 on block/ +7 on hit]

• ON HIT: Must respect any option less than 13 frames, unless a high.
• ON HIT FROM FURTHER RANGES: Even more plus, must respect follow up Amon Ra Blast
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable on block. Punish with 12b2 EX PF, Standing 3 EX PF, or for damage 11XXBC or 3XXBC or f2XXBC

EX Amon Ra Blast [15 frame startup /-11 on block/+12 on hit]

Displacer Orb [35 frame startup/ -11 on block/+24 on hit]

• ON HIT: Must respect all follow up option unless a high. Look out for grab
• ON BLOCK: Full combo punishable on block. Punish with 12b2 EX PF, Standing 3 EX PF, or for damage 11XXBC or 3XXBC or f2XXBC

Glyph of Osiris [13 frame startup/-9 on block/+53 on hit (KND)]

• ON HIT: Regular version on hit send Cyborg to range 3-4
• ON BLOCK:
• MB ON HIT: MB version send opponent full screen
• ON BLOCK:
• TRAIT ON HIT: Trait version sends opponent to range 4
• ON BLOCK:
• MB+TRAIT ON HIT: Trait+MB version is a launcher
• ON BLOCK:

Breath of Life [startup is 16 frames]

• Gains back intervals of 5.00 health overtime
• EX gains back 10.00 healt overtime
• Can summon a max of two
• With trait Cyborg loses 5.69 health intervals over time
• EX version Cyborg loses 11.38 health intervals overtime
• In general with trait, AVOID BREATHE OF LIFE AT ALL COST. You can lose 50% with two on screen

Spell of Judgement []

• ON BLOCK: Does 11.38 of unblockable damage
• When all three collected it does 34.14 damage
• TRAIT: With trait, Ancs(can’t spell lol) go on the ground instead of on the opponent
• ON HIT: Trait: 68.28, 61.49, 55.30 (on hit) in KND
• SOJ+ TRAIT ON BLOCK: Trait on block is19.91 damage
• Both regular and trait are mid attacks

Sharidiums lock [16 frames of startup]

• Prevents nearby interactables from being used
• EX prevents all interactables from being used

TRAIT SPECIAL MOVES(POWER OF APEP):

Apophis Blast

Chaos Orb

Glyph of Anubis

Nabu’s Curse

Spell of Punishment

SUPERMOVE

The Amulet of Anubis [19 frames of startup/-13 on block]

• CHIP: 49.78 damage of chip
• ON HIT: 409.66 damage on hit
• ON BLOCK: Can be reversal punished with powerfist ONLY if done at Range 0
• At all other ranges it is safe on block

SPECIAL CANCEL GAPS:

• (To be updated)

 

[Protagonist_1]

THE OPENING GAME
In order to establish the lead early, it’s important to understand what Dr. Fate’s best and most common opening tools are, and how to counter them. These are the most common openings by playing my training partner DET_blakenator, and watching Pigofthehut, Pnut, and OmGxBdon.

-F2

• Fate charges forward giving of a glowing aurora. It has 9 frames of start up and is -12 on block. The most reliable counter to this is to neutral jump and come down with j2 to full combo punish it.
• Common follow combination is f2 into QCB2.
• IF HIT: tech roll and block to respect the next fireball, or delay wakeup. If you forward dash or waekup NB, you will get hit by Amon Ra blast. You should only do wakeup NB if you read a Displacer Orb or spell of judgement incoming.
• IF BLOCKED: Walking back will cause a follow up f2 to whiff for a full combo punish or neutral jump will cause f2 to whiff.
• Another common follow up after this by Fate is MBf3. If blocked, you must respect the next f2. The only way out is to grapple.
• EXAMPLES:

-QCB2 (Glyph of Osirus)

• Fate gives a powerful blast that pushes the opponent back. This move has 13 frames of startup and is -9 on block.
• This is one of Fate’s best defensive opening since it prevents Cyborg from jumping in or forward dashing.
• Surprisingly, this move does not reach Cyborg in the beginning of the round if you walk back or neutral stand.
• Best options to counter include: IAFB, jump back diagonal fireball, or ground nova blast. If either hit, check with another fireball to establish the zoning intiative or MB roll in for pressure. If blocked, still do a NB. If Amon Ra blast is done, it will trade which favors Cyborg. However, Amon Ra blast is +7, so doing another follow up NB vs. Amon Ra after the first scenario will mean Cyborg will get hit, while Fate can block.
• EXAMPLE VIDEO:

-Walk back

• This is a common defensive option used by Fate to play the conservative game. If you jump, fate can react with QCB2, F2, or several other options to trip guard or punish.
• Best options are to NB, IAFB, or DAFB.
• Risky option is to do techno tackle. If hit you are placed back to range X. It is death on whiff, so it’s a huge gambit. Best to MB it and establish the mid screen zoning game immediately

-Walkback crouch

• Intiate your fireball game until he attmepts to counterzone. This way you build meter and set the tempo
• Stay mid screen with him afterward and push Fate to the corner

-instant jf1

• A general rule on all instant air attacks is that most are no longer active on the way down so ALWAYS PUNISH A WHIFFED INSTANT AIR ATTACK!!!
• Wait for him to drop and fullcombo punish
• Can also be air-to-aired with j1 (tends to trade, must be done on a read)

-instant jf2

• Wait for him to drop and fullcombo punish (you'll need to walk back a bit)
• Best not to air-to-air as his hurtbox is covered in his hitbox (the blue light aurora)
• Can also d2 anti-air

-instant jf3

• Wait for him to drop and full combo punish (you'll need to walk back a bit)
• can be beat out with Cyborg’s jf1 and jf2 (on a read)
• d2 punish

-jf1

• Can be anti-aired with d2 on reaction'
• Can be air-to-air on a read
• Can also be trip guarded

-jf2

• Harder to anti-air than j1, must be just within the jump arc
• If your too outside the jump arc, the auroras hit box will beat out Cyborg’s d2
• walkback trip guard

-jf3

• Harder to anti-air than j2 considering the aurora completely covers Fate’s hurtbox
• -Can be air-to-aired on a read with j1 or j2
• Walkback and trip guard

-nj1

-nj2

-Amon Ra blast

• Can jump over and full combo punish on a read (needs to be tested more)

SUGGESTED CYBORG OPENINGS VS. FATE [WILL BE UPDATED LATER:

-Neutral jump

-Walk back

-IAFB, jump back diagonal fireball

 

[Protagonist_1]

UNDERSTANTING DR. FATE’S ZONING/GENERAL INFORMATION:

• Dr. Fate’s main tools use to zone are Amon Ra blast, Displacer Orb, Glyph of Osirus, and in this matchup spell of judgement. As a Cyborg player you must understand when the Fate player wants to use each for each range (0-6) and work your way from there.
• (IF AT RANGE 3-6) Only check displacer orb with NB if it's just coming out. Once it's mid screen, you cannot check or you'll get hit.
• If you block a displacer orb from range 3-6, you must respect the next follow up option by Fate. Unless you read another orb, or spell of judgement, Amon ra blast will check any jump or dash in. (need to test the jump situation)
• Amon ra blast can be MB which shoots three projectiles. The last fireball can be backdashed/grappled through.
• Grapple is rather risky vs. zoning. However, a well timed grapple can get you over MB Amon Ra blast for a full combo punish. Not a reliable method, and should be used sparingly.
• With trait, Dr. Fate’s fireballs do extra damage on chip and on hit. Also Displacer Orb knocks the opponent down. In general, when Fate has trait, you want to avoid a trade AT ALL COST, unless you have a healthy lifelead. (See "Projectile Damage comparison" to see why)

 

[Protagonist_1]

PROJECTILE DAMAGE COMPARISON:

Amon Ra blast damage on Cyborg: 79.66
Amon Ra blast damage on Cyborg with trait: 102.41
EX Amon Ra blast damage: 142.90
EX Amon Ra blast damage with trait: 186.73
Glyph of Osiris damage: 91.03
Glyph of Osiris damage with trait: [TBA]
EX Glyph of Osiris damage:125.17
EX Glyph of Osiris with trait: launcher
Orb: 68.28
Trait Orb: 102.41 (KND)

Amon Ra blast chip: 21.34
Amon Ra blast chip with trait: 24,18
EX Amon Ra blast chip damage: 21.34 + 15.65 x 2 =
EX Amon Ra blast chip damage with trait: 17.07 x 2 + 24.18 =
Glyph of Osiris chip: 22.76
EX Glyph of Osiris chip: 27.03
Orb chip: 19.91
Trait orb chip: 24.18

Nova Blast damage on Fate: 100.74
Target acquired damage: 62.96
Sonic disrupter Damage: 100.74
Kamakazie drone damage: 88.15
Ground drone damage: 88.15

Nova Blast chip: 25.19
Target Acquired chip: 20.46
Sonic Disruptor chip: 25.19
Cyborg Kamikaze chip: 23.61
Ground Roomba chip: 23.61

 

[Protagonist_1]

VIDEO REVERSAL SITUATIONS (Zoning/Trade situations)

• If Cyborg does NB from full screen and Fate does not challenge and blocks it, Cyborg is guranteed another NB. If fate Amon Ra Blast, he will get hit and Cyborg will be able to block in time:

• If Fate does Amon Ra blast, and Cyborg blocks it, Fate can shoot another ARB and still block a reversal Nova Blast. Also, notice how quickly Fate recovers than in the video above. This shows how Fate wins the zoning war at full screen.

• This situation shows what happens if you continue to trade with Fate at full screen. Even if Cyborg intiate's his zoning game first, Fate's fireball is more plus and recovers faster, thus overtime he wins the trade war. Note that in this matchup, you should avoid being full screen at all cost, because this is where Fate dominates the matchup the most.

• At range 3, if Dr. Fate blocks an IAFB, you can mb roll past a reversal Amon Ra blast for a full combo. Credit goes to Kekoa for the tech:

 

[Protagonist_1]

(RESERVED)

 

[Protagonist_1]

KNOCKDOWN/OKI GENERAL INFO

• Dr. Fate only invincible wakeup is Glyph of Osiris and it's not entirely invincible (although very hard to stuff)
• Although Glyph of Osiris is safe on block mid screen, it is combo punishable in the corner
• If you put Dr. Fate in a cross up situation, you can hop over GOS and punish it (combo specific)

OKI VIDEO EXAMPLES:

12b2 EX PF f2 TA into diagonal fireball [regular knockdown only]

This is showing that dashing in allows Dr. Fate to block in time. In general, you don't want to block GOS if you have a TA out, unless in the corner:

Oki off of 112 [regular knockdown]

Oki off of b123 cancel [regular knockdown]

Oki off of b3 into j3 j1 112

Oki off pf 12b2 PF [meterless/regular knockdown]

Anti-techroll tech off of 12b2 f2 TA setup

Corner setup on Fate by Just_2_swift

 

[Protagonist_1]

OKI GAME (TECH ROLL)

 

[Protagonist_1]

THE CORNER GAME [GENERAL]:

• In the corner, Glyph of Osiris is now full combo punishable due to the lack of push back
• Best punish against GOS is 12b2 EX PF standing 3 EX NB 112(or 113) for pressure
• All of his other wakeup attacks are all stuff able

Example of Punishing GOS in the corner:

Kekoa example at 4:46:

 

[K7L33THA]

Holy shit dude! lol

Amazing write up. I had pretty given up on this mu and just pick Red Hood (who does well vs Fate). But I may give it another go with all this info.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Holy shit dude! lol

Amazing write up. I had pretty given up on this mu and just pick Red Hood (who does well vs Fate). But I may give it another go with all this info.

I'm still not done yet haha. I plan to do this for every one of Cyborg's matchups. My next thread will be Darkseid then Deadshot.

Also, I played a Dr. Fate player in ranked the other night (I'll uploaded it later). I read the f2 opener like a book and just went to down on him haha. Proudest match of my life haha. He got me in the run back though lol.

 

[Protagonist_1]

UPDATE: Add some notes on what to do after his specials and common options listed under "normals." I also added a few things on the oki section, but will still need to do a more detailed write up later. Trying to find better setups to punish GOS (Glyph of Osiris) on wakeup with and without tech roll.

 

[Protagonist_1]

UPDATE 7/12/2017: Knockdown setion update with more regular knockdown setups. More coming soon for tech roll and delayed wakeup mid screen. Also, corner game and reversal situations have been updated with @Kekoa tech vids.

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez. Nice stuff Protagonist!

 

[Protagonist_1]

This thread will be updated after the patch. Still need to complete all gaps from combo's into specials

 

[Protagonist_1]

Is Glyph of Osiris -8 now? I probably need to update this thread later since he got buffed.

 

[Protagonist_1]

My most recent match footage playing this matchup. Still need to work on getting the early life lead in this matchup, and respecting his plus frames:

 

[Protagonist_1]

Example of how you should approach the counter zoning game:

• If you block MB orb, respect all followup options
• Hop over Amon Ra Blast
• Push Dr. Fate to corner
• Avoiding trading with Trait
• Keep him there and zone at ranges 4-2

 

[pretty flocko]

What do you guys think about this match up date players say cyborg wins but I’m not convinced

 

[Ram]

What do you guys think about this match up date players say cyborg wins but I’m not convinced

I do think Cyborg has the advantage, mainly due to downward air NB. However, if their movement is on point, I think the Fate player can do fine in the MU.

EDIT:
(1) if you play carefully, you can jump over his orbs (assuming the orb isn't meterburned)
(2) when Fate is upclose, watch out for the second hit of one of his strings which is a low, gets me everytime :/
(3) look at Fate's frame data...he has very minimal neutral or plus frames and is generally mildly to very negative on a lot of his stuff, so capitalize on this!
(4) when you're in range of his f2 (including beginning of match, shoutouts to @Protagonist_1 for all of the 30+% lifeleads I have gotten because of this), neutral jump 2 to blow him up for it

 

[Protagonist_1]

What do you guys think about this match up date players say cyborg wins but I’m not convinced

From my experience, Cyborg has to stay within 3/4ths screen (about three Cyborg backlashes away) to effectively trade with Fate's zoning. The reason is that downward NB whiffs from any range farther than that, and Cyborg gets outzoned hard from outside this range (the trades are not in his favor from full screen).

Add that to the fact that Fate can very easily keep Cyborg outside this range (walkback/MB roll out of the corner), and the fact that with trait his Amon Ra Blast does just as much if not more damage than Cyborg's zoning (Fate does 102 while Cyborg does 100, Ex Amon Ra does 147), to me, this match up is difficult but manageable.

From my experience, I usually get chipped out, even if I have the life lead considering with trait he does a ton of zoning damage. With trait active, his orb also knocks down the opponent, which also gives another zoning advantage. Only way Cyborg can knock Fate down from zoning is with either trait or target acquired. Target Aquired has too much startup and gets stuffed, so trait (thanks to the buffs) is his other option.

I can go on, but yeah. Fate has better normals than Cyborg too (f2, b2 are amazing), and a better comeback factor if he loses the lifelead than Cyborg does. It's a manageable matchup for sure though, really have to pick your spots. I personally struggle against good Dr. Fate players.

 

[MKF30]

Nice breakdown, been a while since I've played this game with crazy work schedule. I need to get more stable hours once MK 11 hits lol