Lobo Buff Ideas Discussion

[StevoSuprem0]

So I have read through alot of the Lobo discussions and been trying pretty hard to play him effectively, but am finding him coming up very short against anyone who really knows what they are doing with a decent character. I REALLY don't want this to turn into another "Lobo's shit - vs - Lobo's siiiick" thread so let's please focus on talking out what we think might need to be improved to make him a more viable character and why, or if you disagree with something someone said, refute it with some legitimate reasons for why you this the posed opinion is flawed or not the case! *Note:If any of these seem like issues that result from my gameplay, please just lemme know/recommend some improvements.

Here are a few of my ideas to get the ball rolling:

-Trait...
Lobo is one of those characters that has an absolutely shitty trait, not really any way around this one. About two seconds to activate it for ~5% more damage on one of a few of his moves is what it amounts to. Compared with traits like Superman (damage boost, can be included mid-combo; hits some through block; 6s up, 7s cooldown), Black Adam (added ~12% damage and can be activated mid-combo; 10s cooldown), and several others, it's basically not worth using, yet it's pretty important for combo-ing off the low shotgun. I think some ways to make this better would include faster casting (maybe half a second or one second), more than one shell being loaded (two since Lobo uses a double barrel anyway!), or even reworking it to increase damage or having some other effect.

-Fighting Against Zoning
Lobo's big weakness is against people that can zone him, which is most of the cast in this game... but there are several ways that this can be combated. Lobo's charge (bf3) is great to close distances, and MB adds armor, but it doesn't add the armor right away; first, Lobo has to fling his chain out, and during this animation, he is still very vulnerable. If armor was applied sooner, this would be much more viable to go through various projectiles and close gaps, and it really could use more than one tick of armor on a MB to ensure you really do get close. Also, the shotgun.... yeah NRS, you're right, shotguns aren't "ranged"... but they still hit over a pretty good distance, this is a video game, and range is something Lobo sorely needs. Making the shotgun such short range basically makes it a waste of a move. Add some range to it!!!

-Anti-air
This isn't something I see get discussed much, so perhaps it's more relevant to the matchups I play against, but I don't see many options for Lobo as anti-air. The air throw is cool, but doesn't really connect very often- seems to have a very small area that it actually grabs, making it pretty bad as a defensive move. The chain portion of the charge also appears to be an option, but that too doesn't hit a very large range of aerial positions, so doesn't help much. Standing 3 suffers similar issues. Increasing the hit areas of these moves would be a huge help for some anti-air options.

-Wake-up
Charge is my current go-to, but people tend to avoid it by jumping. I try to mix in the air grab, but that tends to wiff even when they are positioned well for it, and I end up getting a full punish... similar to the above, improving the range of these would help him have some options to get people off him when he's being pressured, which he doesn't seem to have many answers to.

That pretty much covers the main issues I have with Lobo. He is very good as a mid range character and has some really awesome flavor, but he has some very large flaws that hold him back in some big ways. As a fellow comic reader, in agreement with something Reo said, Lobo is a pretty strong force in the DC universe and warrants a better showing in a game like this (I know the comics don't really have anything to do with how strong that character is in a game like this, but c'monnnn...). He is an awesome character concept and having more viable higher tier characters only promotes variety in tournament and casual play!!!

So what do you guys think? Any good points to add? Want to refute anything I said? Let the discussion begin.

 

[LOCO]

I like how u didn't say lobo is shit or that he is boss
Good

Anyways I like a lot of your ideas but some I don't

The shotgun is fine with its range. It's not meant for zoning

The charge should have more armor and his trait ehhh it could be better

His antiair is fine

The only thing I think lobo needs is armor on his chArge to deal with heAvy keep AwAy
Things that I think would be a plus is armor on his MB grab and stAckable trait

And maybe a longer hitbox on his arms if you want to get generous

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah that's something I forgot to mention- hitbox on the Czar throw is pretty awkward. Clearly looks like it is hitting at times and isn't. Definitely not something reserved to Lobo, but something to consider.

I agree that the shotgun shouldn't be usable for zoning, but it think if it was capable of hitting at a larger range and still be pretty slow with decent damage, it would be a bit more useful. I think it should be able to counter zoning to some extent, but not zone outright, if that is even a thing...

What do you use as anti-air and how do you use it? That is a big problem of mine right now...

Thanks for contributing regardless =)

 

[Cage Redfield]

Give his anti-air throw 4 hits of armor

Give stand 3 air-attack invulnerability

Make Pump Shot wall bounce on hit, ceiling bounce if trait's active

Czar Toss has Walking Corpse-like armor

All hook moves do 30% chip damage

Make his dash go through low hitting projectiles as well

Spoiler

ok im done trolling

I guess the only buff I'd like would be more armor on MB Hook Charge. Besides that, Lobo is fine.

 

[Robotic]

I like this thread idea.

Lemme get this outta the way: Lobo doesn't need full screen shenanigans, he just needs to give zoners a reason to fear their own mistakes. How NRS made a character that zoners can autopilot on...

ANYwho...Right now, zoners can spam their little hearts out against Lobo with little regard to their own skill, or the skill of a Lobo player.

1. MB Charge to have immediate armor, be completely safe on block AND go a tinge farther. Lobo needs a wakeup option. Sektor in MK9 had to burn meter in order to have a wakeup option to begin with, but when he used it (EX TU), it was arguably the best wakeup in the game. If it goes just a teeny weeny bit farther, it could make a world of difference to closing the distance on a zoner when combined with jid3 and his dash. Even if you dropped me when I was Sektor, you had to respect the fact that I could - at the cost of meter - get out of virtually any situation you put me in with EX TU, and even if I didn't land it, we were back at neutral. AND GOD HELP YOU IF I DID LAND IT. An opponent attempting whatever the fuck against Lobo on wakeup and having the MB charge improved as listed above, might make the opponent think twice.

2. DB2 is absolutely useless to the way Lobo is intended to be played. This move needs viability. I'm 6 in on a Sam Adams Alpine Spring kick, so I'll leave it to everyone else to come up with better ideas than mine on how to make it useful. Off the top of my head, make this move faster, a la Jax dash punch. If I'm going to blast my opponent's face to the other side of the screen - exactly where a Lobo player doesn't want him - then make the move more appropriate to use in a real-game situation; Make it worth my fucking while.

3. Hmm...If you shorten the time on his trait....it might break the B12 xxTrait option. As is, this thing is dangerous when combined with the IAD3, CZT, low blast, throw, B2U1, DB3 - and to a lesser extent F23 - on a downed opponent, that shortening the time for his Glow Shot to load might make unforeseen combo possibilities for Lobo game breaking...I'm not sure on this, though. Pure conjecture.

...

...Would anyone be fine with leaving the time and effectiveness of his shitty trait as-is if it automatically loaded 2 shots?

4. Give him Space Dolphins.

5. Crazy shit here, but have his jump, down 3 reflect (off completely, not back to his opponent) projectiles if timed right. Have this be strict timing, almost anticipatory. If Reo is right and the Cyborg match is 2-8, give the fuckin guy a break and issue him a tool that will nullify the air shots.

6. Have him get Atrocitus somehow in this game. Red Lantern is the shit.

I haven't been on here in forever, so I hope the new guys forgive my (used to be) expected longwindedness.

 

[BGMD]

Don't know if my opinion holds any value, but my 2 pesos...

either 1 more hit of armor on MB hook charge or shotgun hitting at 2/3 of the screen range (1 roll from fullscreen to get in the range)...
can't have both, but favoring first option by a lot (essential to improve him I think)

minor tweaks:
at least some priority and range on db1 grab. right now it's much shittier version of Grundy's... tossing your opponent away is repercussion enough for using such a reactionary tool... currently most useless Lobo special
non-scalable damage on trait throw (see Black Adam) - why only 2% extra in throw, but 4-5% in combos/super?

I believe these are few reasonable suggestions to help him a bit, but not broke him to any extreme
thinking of it, almost everything he has is shittier amalgamation of Grundy's specials

 

[CY MasterHavik]

guys...he's barely been out for a month...i know yall mean well, but this is too soon. And to be honest...a character that get 40 to 50 with just a bar and more with his trait is nuts. I mean let's buff Green Arrow, since he does no damage...oh wait..his trait never runs out, has resets and pressure options, and a super that can combo after. I feel yall are wasting your time. All those types of the keyboard could have been lab time with Lobo.

 

[tactfulgamer]

I agree with Robotic & OP.
however I disagree with OP shotgun range increase.

Though he's been out early, it's plain as daylight he needs help. But I hope he gets more time out in the wild 3-4 months before buffing him. More attained knowledge can lead to healthy buff vs a hasty one. Which I am sure they will do.

But you guys all made valuable points even the one against the buff.

I tweeted this link to Ed Boon & Hector Sanchez.

 

[Chris Tofa]

I don't think shotgun is useless at all, once you've cornered them and spaced yourself to start zoning with standing 3 low/high/mid shotgun its godlike, especially if you go ham and ex. His mid and high shots have big hit boxes and hit out jumpers. Great pressure tool.

Maybe buff damage on low shot, give trait mid shot a bigger stagger similar to shazams f2 2. Just throwing things out there

 

[R1sefromyourgrave]

i'd like to see more range on the 2 in the 1,2 string. as this can be used on block and hit to go into throw but you have to be pretty close for the 2 to connect on block. That and armor on all the mb charge animation.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I understand the whole "only been out for a week, game is only a month or so old" mentality, but I don't think that's any kind of excuse not to start thinking about what needs to be buffed. I will repeat something Tom Brady said (unfortunately =P): Right now, I think buffing is fine, but no one should be talking about nerfing (except game breaking things like the block infinite on Cyborg and stuff). There are tools that players have to get around alot of things people would say need to be nerfed, while buffing characters is really just bringing them up to a more viable level. Whether it's legitimate or not, Lobo was put in D tier by Reo/Brady for a reason and needs some improvements.

Also, I feel like a few people are thinking I wanted all those changes that I posed- just to be clear, they are just a few ideas, not a list of demands I would want all at once. I by NO means whatsoever want to break Lobo, I just really want to see him (and everyone for that matter) in the game be viable and competitive.

I agree that the shotgun doesn't need to be full range (especially if the charge is improved a little with armor or whatever), but right now it feels weird to be that if they are more than an arms length away, the thing wiffs and leaves me flipping in the breeze. I'd like to see it hit at 2/3 screen like someone said earlier just so he can pressure a little bit at this kind of distance, let's say, a little shorter range than the charge maybe?

I forgot to talk about db2 earlier, thanks for bringing that up! I have mixed feelings; I actually kinda like having something in the Lobo tool chest that backs off some of the more viable rushdown characters like grundy and doomsday, and MB on it keeps them close if thats what you want to use it for, so currently it gives you options based on your opponent. But yes, db2 and the air grab are pretty contradictory to the way Lobo has to be played against most opponents and it does tend to result in not wanting to use the, despite how cool they both are.

Thanks for contributing to the conversation so far everyone! Again, I know it's a little early to "cry buff" but it doesn't hurt to get some ideas out there! In my opinion, the sooner the top 32 isn't the same 5 characters with a few rogues sprinkled in, the better.

 

[dookieagain]

Frankly Lobo only needs a few things.

He needs the armor on MB charge to start early and go to active frames so he has a viable wakeup and something to deal with single hit mid projectiles. (the ones that hit his dash)

Then he needs the cancel window on his b+1 to be widened so that landing a combo off 21low shotgun trait is not so inconsistent.

He needs his trait reload to be safe on hard knockdown. Right now he can't even trade a hard knockdown for future mixup opportunities which is silly.


As for stuff I disagree with

Also his AA is some of the best in the game and leads to high damage and/or a hard knockdown.

Also his trait is key to his game because his trait gives him a safe 50-50 with 21Trait for overhead and 2Trait for low. If the combo after was more reliable this would be great.

I could see maybe adjusting his b12 chain to allow a combo after, but honestly that'd probably be too good. Right now it's some sort of weird one frame artifact that is just too hard to time to call it worthwhile.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Another thing I'd like to throw out there is the difficulty of timing the czar throw off of b1. The fact that this is in his 50/50 BnB's is pretty rough. I know it's just a timing issue, but Reo talked about how much harder things like this are to pull off than most characters BnBs, and I'm not trying to dickride or anything, but it's a valid point. Ease of use really isn't a really a huge concern, but when you have people like Supes getting pretty easy 40-50%s pressing f23 over and over as a top tier character, it's just a tad bit obnoxious in my opinion. I dunno, maybe you guys disagree, but I think it makes him completely unplayable online and really hard to pick up and get competitive with.

Also, some of you are saying he has good anti-air; I'm just curious what you are using, because I try using standing 3 or the air grab, but the air grab generally wiffs even when my hands move through their character frames (sigh...) and the standing 3 seems to only hit them when they are at a decent distance, but misses if I'm getting crossed up. So without a good wake-up against things in the air, I tend to have to just go on block and start getting pressured =(

 

[Danger317]

he doesn't need a buff. he's fine where he is.

 

[IrishMantis]

All Lobo needs its a few safer option maybe mother shell locks the op in block stun when blocked, I playing with him and he has some really sick tools, especially the lobo loop

 

[Dulllyanna]

Do AA grab as late as possible. Personally I've never had problems AAing random crossups with it, and 3 is good enough that it doesn't really need to beat crossups. On wakeup just block, most characters have to do so anyways.

I posted a big wall of shit in another thread, so I might as well dump it here where it's more relevant:

...Anyways, this is what I think he could use. He definitely doesn't need all of it to be competitive, but right now he feels kind of half-assed and underdeveloped so most of it wouldn't hurt imho.

-b12 would be fine if it were airtight given that all he gets are either 20% with jack shit for oki or free shell. Heck, if he got a combo off of it (Even just bf3) and it were airtight I wouldn't mind losing the + frames, though Bane and WW also have + on block low launchers and they're perfectly fine. Also off topic but I love that I can safely say that + on block low launchers are perfectly fine without being a jackass lol, Injustice owns.

-High shotgun should have more range and better block frames, or something else to justify using it. Maybe hard knockdown since getting shot in the face with a space shotgun kinda sucks? That'd be a kinda goofy, unnecessary change since he has bf3 though. Right now it's pretty much only useful after 21 on block since it jails after the 1 and does a bit more damage than the mid shotgun, whoop de fucking doo.

-Loaded low shell should launch higher. At around max range all Lobo gets is... 3, since none of his chain moves reach. I'd also be fine with 3 having different effects so that those can hit after it, but getting bf3 no matter what range would help far, far more.

-The other shotgun moves need something to justify using them when he has trait loaded. I'm not saying give mid shot a wallbounce and be +10 on block, but there's literally no reason not to use low shot since it does nothing notable for his strings, other shotgun specials or b/f3 moves besides a piddly damage boost. His regular throw doing more damage would be nice too, but that's w/e since he has dbf2.

-This kind of hinges on whether they do anything to his other buffed shotgun moves, but getting more than one shell would be nice without being ridiculous. It wouldn't make his 21/2 xx low shot mixup too much since without confirming he has to either spend meter or make an unsafe commitment to get anything good off of the overhead.

-Safer db2. There's not a lot of point to the move outside of getting a hard knockdown after EXing it, or piddly more damage for ending combos with it instead of bf3, not to mention db3 is faster, longer range and a low. This one isn't a big deal, but it'd be a nice option to have.

-Faster walkspeed. Also a low priority since his dash and AA are so good, and his poorly designed trait is the most blatant issue imho.

Lobo definitely doesn't need fullscreen projectiles or armor on regular bf3 (Though only having armor on the tackle part of the EX version is wonky). His dash is more than adequate enough and zoners being effective is a refreshing change of pace. Also because he has really strong momentum once he gets things started and literally puts the opponent in a throw/bait wakeup guessing game until he runs out of meter or guesses wrong, and the risk/reward is typically in his favor.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Do AA grab as late as possible. Personally I've never had problems AAing random crossups with it, and 3 is good enough that it doesn't really need to beat crossups. On wakeup just block, most characters have to do so anyways.

I posted a big wall of shit in another thread, so I might as well dump it here where it's more relevant:

Yeah man, you bring up alot of similar points that I had with some better analysis, and a few things I didnt think of. Good shit man, thanks for reposting it here.

 

[tactfulgamer]

Also, some of you are saying he has good anti-air; I'm just curious what you are using

down 2 is another strong anti air it seems to have a decent hit box.

 

[MagicMan357]

He needs no buffs OMG this is so annoying

AA: d2 (is great), 1 (50/50), 3 (Great on reaction)

Mid: His 11 chains are both good, his 2 is solid, his 3 is great at max distance with shotgun

Has great frame fraps

Various Setups of MB bf3

His Jd3 is great when used correctly (instant dive FTW)

His trait is slow because it would most likely break the game like someone said before me, which means instead of moaning, i started doing it to finish certain combos since i have the advantage.

This game shouldnt be about easy wins, people need to invest time. I just learned something new again with Shazam of all people.

But there is a patch coming so im wondering whats ahead

 

[learis1]

I always thought it'd be awesome if he could load two shells. You'd get more dmg off a combo with multiple shotgun fires in it, and you'd possibly be able to have combos that only work with two shells loaded. I think it's cool because you get the higher reward for the greater challenge of loading the two shells and landing the combo.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

He needs no buffs OMG this is so annoying

His trait is slow because it would most likely break the game like someone said before me, which means instead of moaning, i started doing it to finish certain combos since i have the advantage.

This game shouldnt be about easy wins, people need to invest time. I just learned something new again with Shazam of all people.

But there is a patch coming so im wondering whats ahead

I'm gonna disagree with you on the trait. It's slow, yes, AND it doesn't really come with too much reward. He absolutely need it up for access to his 50/50s (which are pretty subpar and need meter to amount to any kinda damage), and it doesn't add very much damage when used otherwise. I don't think it competes with any of the top tier character traits at all, and pales in comparison to several low ones as well.

Regarding your easy wins comment, I have put a good amount of time in and actually beat a few friends of mine that are very solid black adam and aquaman players a few times once I got the hang of his mix-ups, but I find myself relying pretty heavily on stage interactables and such to pull of the wins. I didn't see a single Lobo in the ECT5 footage (yes, that can be said about a few characters, but that's not the point...), and there is a reason for that- the character has issues and isn't competitive enough to play at any high level. The whole point of this forum is to discuss ways to improve that, because the more viable characters there are, the more variety we get to watch and experience when playing, which I think will be awesome.

If you think he's fine as is, I'd like to hear how you would handle Cyborg, Deathstroke, and the zoning crew with him, because I find myself pretty much stuck on block and still getting hit before a meter burn charge goes through.

 

[MagicMan357]

StevoSuprem0

He does have issues, i agree.

I wouldnt mind buffs, my real fear is this game becoming mk9 all over again. Im not gonna lie i would like better armor on BF3 MB and even a quicker trait but the game just came out and i feel that arent really putting in the time to advance.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

StevoSuprem0

He does have issues, i agree.

I wouldnt mind buffs, my real fear is this game becoming mk9 all over again. Im not gonna lie i would like better armor on BF3 MB and even a quicker trait but the game just came out and i feel that arent really putting in the time to advance.

Yeah, to me, those are his two big ones. Maybe a few other little tweaks, but the trait and the bf3 armor would be a huge improvement. I feel like it's too accepted that fighting games are never well balanced when there are always just a few little things here and there across the board that could make a huge stride towards fixing some of the weaker characters =/

Oh well, like you said, we'll see where the next few patches take us.