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General/Other - Sub-Zero List of all B2 Punishes

TakeAChance

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
To expand this further, some characters can actually stuff your b2 with a simple check.

For instance, although Mileena has no option to punish the actual clone, she can punish a b2 attempt. She can even check it with a standing 1~ex telekick.

If you attempt a b2 after the clone is out, the 1 will beat it and the ex telekick will come out.

If you don't attempt the b2, she just has a standing 1 that comes out.

While this is still a punishable option, it does force sub zero to either delay his pressure/clone time, or move in to force the 50/50 where Mileena can then check with 123 through the clone for advantage.

The ex clone mind game against her is hard, but she does have options.
 
Tom Brady

Tom Brady

Champion
TakeAChance said:
To expand this further, some characters can actually stuff your b2 with a simple check.

For instance, although Mileena has no option to punish the actual clone, she can punish a b2 attempt. She can even check it with a standing 1~ex telekick.

If you attempt a b2 after the clone is out, the 1 will beat it and the ex telekick will come out.

If you don't attempt the b2, she just has a standing 1 that comes out.

While this is still a punishable option, it does force sub zero to either delay his pressure/clone time, or move in to force the 50/50 where Mileena can then check with 123 through the clone for advantage.

The ex clone mind game against her is hard, but she does have options.
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In the corner after the clone set up combo, which is the situation most are concerned about so I do not count "check" options, B2 is safe vs Mileena. Not only is B2 safe in that situation vs Mileena safe, but even if you ex roll as a wake up attack, you will be armor broken from B2+clone before it hits SZ. Her only options are either block it or delayed wake up.


The clone out examples are basically in corner, with clone out after the set up combo.
 
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E

Eldriken

Guest
Naturally Jacqui gets a pretty piss poor punish. But a punish is a punish I suppose.

Thanks for the list, Brady. It's appreciated.
 
TakeAChance

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Tom Brady said:
In the corner after the clone set up combo, B2 is safe vs Mileena, which is the situation i'm talking about. Not only is it safe, but your ex roll will be armor broken from B2+clone before it hits SZ.

The clone out examples are basically in corner, with clone out after the set up combo.
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Even so, the B2 is never guaranteed against anyone.

So while it's unsafe even on block, actually getting it out from the distance of ex clone can become trickier as the meta evolves since from that distance you can't do your low option, characters can still trade with your strings/beat them due to normals still not getting froze by the clone.

So right now, you may do B12~Ex Clone and then immediately check with a b2. While the move is unsafe against the majority of the cast, pretty much the ENTIRE cast can prevent you from even using that option unless you delay it. Due to the nature of the clones hitbox, you aren't even really guaranteed your 50/50 since a simple jab buffered into a special can not only check the B2, but a run up throw, or run up B33 as well.
 
Tom Brady

Tom Brady

Champion
TakeAChance said:
Even so, the B2 is never guaranteed against anyone.

So while it's unsafe even on block, actually getting it out from the distance of ex clone can become trickier as the meta evolves since from that distance you can't do your low option, characters can still trade with your strings/beat them due to normals still not getting froze by the clone.

So right now, you may do B12~Ex Clone and then immediately check with a b2. While the move is unsafe against the majority of the cast, pretty much the ENTIRE cast can prevent you from even using that option unless you delay it. Due to the nature of the clones hitbox, you aren't even really guaranteed your 50/50 since a simple jab buffered into a special can not only check the B2, but a run up throw, or run up B33 as well.
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Dude.. you just love to argue.. again i say:
In the corner after the clone set up combo, which is the situation most are concerned about so I do not count "check" options, B2 is safe vs Mileena. Not only is B2 safe in that situation vs Mileena safe, but even if you ex roll as a wake up attack, you will be armor broken from B2+clone and/or B33+clone. Her only options are either block or delayed wake up.
 
TakeAChance

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Tom Brady said:
Dude.. you just love to argue.. again i say:
In the corner after the clone set up combo, which is the situation most are concerned about so I do not count "check" options, B2 is safe vs Mileena. Not only is B2 safe in that situation vs Mileena safe, but even if you ex roll as a wake up attack, you will be armor broken from B2+clone before it hits SZ. Her only options are either block it or delayed wake up.
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Dude, I'm not arguing with you at all. I was just trying to point out that in this case, after the ex clone setup not only can 24 members of the cast get a punish off of you if you do a b2, but most can also ensure the b2 doesn't come out at all. I'm just trying to share information because after finding out that my ex fade and my ex roll were not options to punish Sub-Zero with after a clone cancel (which you pointed out btw, so I went and labbed) I had to start looking at alternative ways to punish him.

If you honestly think I am trying to argue with you and not just share some options for other characters then I don't know what to tell you. Here, let's end it. You win the argument.
 
Tom Brady

Tom Brady

Champion
TakeAChance said:
Dude, I'm not arguing with you at all. I was just trying to point out that in this case, after the ex clone setup not only can 24 members of the cast get a punish off of you if you do a b2, but most can also ensure the b2 doesn't come out at all. I'm just trying to share information because after finding out that my ex fade and my ex roll were not options to punish Sub-Zero with after a clone cancel (which you pointed out btw, so I went and labbed) I had to start looking at alternative ways to punish him.

If you honestly think I am trying to argue with you and not just share some options for other characters then I don't know what to tell you. Here, let's end it. You win the argument.
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You keen mentioning "after ex clone" such as B12~ex clone referring to off of strings which not universal. In corners it will almost always be F4~clone and not another string unless the opponent has no meter to punish the clone cancel. Now, F4~ex clone is at least +10 and nothing outside of armor attacks will beat B2 in that situation so there is no "check". You can't always check at the sight of a clone and certainly not ex clone. Trying to "check" after F4~Clone will get you blasted by F4~ex clone. Getting your "check" is extremely risky and its much better to just block it in that situation.

I have changed SZ around A LOT. He plays different what others are doing because almost all of them got it from an out dated guide not based around the current characters or meta.
 
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TakeAChance

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
Tom Brady said:
You keen mentioning "after ex clone" referring to off of strings which not universal. F4~ex clone is at least +10 and nothing outside of armor attacks will beat B2 in that situation, there is no "check". Can't always check at the sight of a clone and certainly not ex clone. In corners it will almost ALWAYS be F4~clone unless the opponent has no meter t0 punish the cancel. Trying to "check" after F4~Clone will get you blasted by F4~ex clone. Getting your "check" is extremely risky.
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Since you just pulled the F4~ex clone situation out of thin air, lets talk about that.

In that situation the meta is still the same. "Will he attack, or not".

Can Mileena or any other character interrupt your b2? I know some characters d1's should be able to while others wont.

I know that when sub zero is in attack frames that push him towards me I can essentially ignore the clone because due to the priority of sub zero's hitbox over the clones I will just hit you/trade and not get frozen.

I'm at work atm, but if you were left at +10 after F4~Ex Clone cancel, about how many frames would an opponent have to utilize to interupt your back 2?
 
Tom Brady

Tom Brady

Champion
BloodyNights said:
Tom Brady helping everyone level up to punish Sub-Zero before Evo? :p
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Plenty of people already punish this. I run into it a lot in tourney play as it is and it used to catch me off guard because I read on TYM that the move is safe-ish and nearly impossible to punish.

I don't even use B2 that much anymore outside of corner trap so it doesnt matter.
 
Tom Brady

Tom Brady

Champion
TakeAChance said:
Since you just pulled the F4~ex clone situation out of thin air, lets talk about that.

In that situation the meta is still the same. "Will he attack, or not".

Can Mileena or any other character interrupt your b2? I know some characters d1's should be able to while others wont.

I know that when sub zero is in attack frames that push him towards me I can essentially ignore the clone because due to the priority of sub zero's hitbox over the clones I will just hit you/trade and not get frozen.

I'm at work atm, but if you were left at +10 after F4~Ex Clone cancel, about how many frames would an opponent have to utilize to interupt your back 2?
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A few characters can D1 and for those characters I use F4~OS Ice Ball which cannot be interrupted at all, even with armor. So either the character cannot "Check" the B2, or that character can and I use F4~OS Ice Ball on those characters so the "check" is still not mind game option after F4~ex clone.

A "check" at the sight of a clone off of F4 is risky because you will never confirm clone or ex clone in time to know "check" or not.
 
BloodyNights

BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
Tom Brady said:
Plenty of people already punish this. I run into it a lot in tourney play as it is and it used to catch me off guard because I read on TYM that the move is safe-ish and nearly impossible to punish.

I don't even use B2 that much anymore outside of corner trap so it doesnt matter.
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Haha I'm just messing with you. Still you are helping less knowledgeable players in the Sub-Zero Match up. I doubt the people who didn't lab it up before hand would have been much of a threat anyways.

To be fair though, a lot of the punishes against B2 are 1-2 frame punishes. Which can be difficult so I can see why some people might think it's nearly impossible to punish if they haven't practiced against it before hand.
 
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Tom Brady

Tom Brady

Champion
BloodyNights said:
Haha I'm just messing with you. Still you are helping less knowledgeable players in the Sub-Zero Match up. I doubt the people who didn't lab it up before hand wouldn't have been much of a threat anyways.

To be fair though, a lot of the punishes against B2 are 1-2 frame punishes. Which can be difficult so I can see why some people might think it's nearly impossible to punish if they haven't practiced against it before hand.
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It's rare for me to miss a B12 punish in the mirror offline which is a 2 frame window. Its not hard.
 
NB Semi Evil Ryu

NB Semi Evil Ryu

Former Sub-Zero of the Midwest (2011 - 2015)
Nice list. I may honestly print out about twenty copies of these for every event that I go to and just hand them out to people that I play in casuals / tournament. lol
 
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