Question Kenshi as 2nd chr (against JC and Sonya)

[b1ggle]

Hey guys, I know it's a little bit late to play mk, but anyway
I'm mastering my Kenshi as a second char to close reptile bad matchups (Sonya and JC first of all). So I just want to know what should I pay attention for.

It's obvious that I need to keep a distance and zone them as hard as possible, but I want to understand some details. What options should I use more and what less?

I watched some pig of the hut matches against Sonya, but I still have some unclear moments:

1) Should I use d3 + SC all the time, when opponent is on the close distance?
2) What about 21B2 ? When should I use it and is it useful at all?
3) I saw pig usually is doing 114 after JP and KH Cat used 21B2 - what is the reason and what is better option? Shouldn't I use F22B2 / F22B3 at all?
4) I saw some stuff from mayo about d4 + TS but didn't see someone who really use it. So

Srry for noob questions, hope this board is still alive)

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Be careful on wakeups because they can easily jump over them or crossup.
D3 SC is good.
Use F22B2 alot. Grants free shoulder charge. And if they respect that string alot then go for another F22B2. Create that mindgame.
And im guessing those other strings are for spacing options

 

[GamerBlake90]

@Under_The_Mayo
@AK Pig Of The Hut
@Blackula

 

[STRYKIE]

By 'JK', do you mean JC, as in Johnny Cage? I don't really think that's worth counterpicking from a Reptile player's perspective. Unless you mean you hate Cage in general and just want to steamroll him lol.

My best guess on Pig's use of 114 is that it's more hit-confirmable and gives you a little more time to think about your options, overhead slash should only be used sparingly in the Sonya matchup, it doesn't grant enough damage/advantage to properly negate the threat of EX cartwheel.

Naked spirit charge is still serviceable since as far as I'm aware, Sonya doesn't have a way to punish it (apart from potentially a frame-perfect instant dive kick? LBSH, that won't happen consistently even if it did), and it's easier to buffer within pressure.

 

[RM Truth]

By 'JK', do you mean JC, as in Johnny Cage? I don't really think that's worth counterpicking from a Reptile player's perspective. Unless you mean you hate Cage in general and just want to steamroll him lol.

My best guess on Pig's use of 114 is that it's more hit-confirmable and gives you a little more time to think about your options, overhead slash should only be used sparingly in the Sonya matchup, it doesn't grant enough damage/advantage to properly negate the threat of EX cartwheel.

Naked spirit charge is still serviceable since as far as I'm aware, Sonya doesn't have a way to punish it (apart from potentially a frame-perfect instant dive kick? LBSH, that won't happen consistently even if it did), and it's easier to buffer within pressure.

Why play a 5-5/6-4 when you can play an 8-2?

 

[STRYKIE]

Why play a 5-5/6-4 when you can play an 8-2?

Yeah I thought about that just now and edited accordingly lol.

 

[Vagrant]

Sonya will still eat you alive if you don't master Kenshi. I'm not a big believer in pocket kenshi against sonya.

 

[b1ggle]

@FOREVER EL1TE thanks. As I know SC is not free after F22B2, cause SC is 8 frames and F22B2 is zero on block, so opponent can poke me

@STRYKIE lol thanks man, JC of course. Fixed it. Got the idea about 114.

@Vagrant yeah, but reptile vs sonya is 3:7 in sonya favor, so it's dead match up at all. I think kenshi is the easiest way, correct me if I'm wrong

And what about 21B2? What are pros/cons ?

 

[Vagrant]

@Vagrant yeah, but reptile vs sonya is 3:7 in sonya favor, so it's dead match up at all. I think kenshi is the easiest way, correct me if I'm wrong

HAN and I agreed this was 6-4 not 7-3 and he is by far the best reptile I've ever played. Most reptile players don't even come close to playing him at that level and call it a 7-3. Whatever works for ya I guess.

 

[Tony at Home]

Isn't d3 xx SC punishable by certain moves like Sub Zero's slide?

*edit*
Nope, I cant punish it... God I hate this MU...

 

[Soul Bound X]

Reptile vs cage isn't that bad. But Kenshi is the easiest character to learn. Once you have him down kenshin vs cage becomes a 10-0 mu, so you'll never get problems from him again.

 

[b1ggle]

HAN and I agreed this was 6-4 not 7-3 and he is by far the best reptile I've ever played. Most reptile players don't even come close to playing him at that level and call it a 7-3. Whatever works for ya I guess.

Yeah maybe I'm not skilled enough to beat sonya, so I'm trying to find the easiest way and kenshi looks like an answer

@Soul Bound X yeah, repltile vs cage is much easier then vs sonya, but anyway it's good to have kenshi in the pocket

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

11 and 21 are best used after jump ins. Both start high, so you don't want to use them on the ground really. 11 can be confirmed into 114 for a combo, and 21 can be confirmed into 21B2 for a combo. But if they're blocking, then you a mix up of stopping at 11 or 21, and then going low or throwing or using an EX SC frame trap.

F22B1 is a confirmed combo launcher or punishing tool only. F22B2 is good because it's neutral and gives you a Spirit Charge after, but it's not guaranteed. It can be armored through (Sonya will be looking for this), and it can be completely interrupt for full combo by a quick dash jab from Sonya, Kung Lao, and Sektor.

The reason why TKS is good in pressure is because it's a safe overhead that actually has less recovery than a Spirit Charge. But it's a slower move and people tend to try to punish it, which means you can EX SC through them.

D1/D3 SC is good, especially D1/D3 EX SC for the "frame trap". 1) It's good because it's safe and has pushback. 2) Kenshi doesn't really get anything off of a D1/D3 on hit except maybe an attempt to B2. He doesn't have a fast mid pressure normal like Cage's and Kabal's knees. So use it to make space.

 

[TaffyMeat]

[quote="b1ggle, post: 141]It's obvious that I need to keep a distance and zone them as hard as possible. [/quote]
This is what I have a problem with. Maybe it's because you're a reptile player that you have this mentality but in my opinion, Kenshi is better as rushdown with F+3. If you're trying to play keep away, JC could red shadow kick towards you to close the gap and a good sonya player would dash block into D4 cartwheel.

 

[Vagrant]

Yeah maybe I'm not skilled enough to beat sonya, so I'm trying to find the easiest way and kenshi looks like an answer

I actually respect the hell out of this honesty and have no issue with this. Perfectly valid strategy.

 

[Soul Bound X]

[quote="b1ggle, post: 141]It's obvious that I need to keep a distance and zone them as hard as possible.

This is what I have a problem with. Maybe it's because you're a reptile player that you have this mentality but in my opinion, Kenshi is better as rushdown with F+3. If you're trying to play keep away, JC could red shadow kick towards you to close the gap and a good sonya player would dash block into D4 cartwheel.[/quote]
If ur a cage player and u red kick, the risk is all on you in that mu

 

[b1ggle]

@Under_The_Mayo wow Mayo u re the man, thanks a lot for this detailed answer! Will master my skills accordingly )

 

[TaffyMeat]

This is what I have a problem with. Maybe it's because you're a reptile player that you have this mentality but in my opinion, Kenshi is better as rushdown with F+3. If you're trying to play keep away, JC could red shadow kick towards you to close the gap and a good sonya player would dash block into D4 cartwheel.

If ur a cage player and u red kick, the risk is all on you in that mu[/quote]

It's risk x reward. Everyone wants to do moves that are + on block and stay safe. Sometimes risk pays off but it's all Symantec really

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

As a Kenshi and Cage main who had experience on both sides of the coin I would say the best thing to learn how to do with Kenshi is consistantly land anti crossover EX RK. With pressure characters they are going to want to stay positive on strings and look for EX SC to jump over and full combo punish. You need to be patient or you will get blown up hard.

I can tell you I destroy pocket Kenshi's with Cage because people just assume the MU is auto win.

But this all plays into 70% player skill 30% character

 

[Soul Bound X]

If ur a cage player and u red kick, the risk is all on you in that mu

It's risk x reward. Everyone wants to do moves that are + on block and stay safe. Sometimes risk pays off but it's all Symantec really[/quote]

It's good if kenshi is back against the corner but, other than that the risk/reward isn't in cages favor. Cage doesn't have the tools he needs to really compete in this mu. This mu is very bad and he should never win it really. It's not hard to keep cage out so rush down kenshi doesn't really make sense . Its unneccessary

 

[Immortal]

Kenshi vs Cage isn't really as straight forward as most people like to say.

First of all - you need to patience Don't go ham coz its very bad MU for Cage coz you gonna get blown up. Secondly don't all defensive either, coz in that mode especially on shorter arenas you gonna end up in the corner which isn't a good place to be vs Cage. Mix style, use f3,2,rk, f3,2,sc from time to time to catch them off guard (and create space). Keep your meter for EX SC/RK, since you never know when things gonna go sideways so its good to have "get free out off jail" card.

Like somebody else here said, good Cage player gonna most likely destroy a pocket Kenshi player. Don't get me wrong it's a really bad MU for Cage but it's not an auto win.

 

[TaffyMeat]

It's risk x reward. Everyone wants to do moves that are + on block and stay safe. Sometimes risk pays off but it's all Symantec really

It's good if kenshi is back against the corner but, other than that the risk/reward isn't in cages favor. Cage doesn't have the tools he needs to really compete in this mu. This mu is very bad and he should never win it really. It's not hard to keep cage out so rush down kenshi doesn't really make sense . Its unneccessary[/quote]

I hate zoning. So when people say that they want to use kenshi and zone the shit out of the mu, yes it pisses me off

 

[DeathTouch]

use b2 to close distance on Sonya and Cage

 

[Dizzy]

Use d1 xx SC instead of d3 xx SC. Faster, better hitbox, and can AA if they attempt to jump out at neutral.