Kabals Mids act like Pseudo-Highs vs Kitana's Hurtbox

[LawAbidingCitizen]

One of my most wanted changes for MK11 isn't buffs/nerfs its adjustment of Hitboxes and Hurtboxes. Females have an advantage in that area and This has existed in many MK's but I gotta say its more of a problem in MK11.


I can adapt and find better ways to play vs small hurtbox characters(Which I'm doing) but I think most agree they would like this fixed.
I'm sure many Kabal mains are aware of these wiffing issues but I'd like to make it known to all:

Almost all of Kabals Mids/highs wiff on Crouch Blocking Kitana:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173462822690275329

Some moves Kitana does B231 makes Kabal wiff all his mids on shimmy/wiff punish including:
B1
F2
F4
DB4

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173448361820639232

These are mids that don't work if they are crouching or crouch blocking or if they are doing moves that put their body's close to the ground. There are many examples of this. From what I've tested its not caused by him having a bad hitbox but the opponents hurtbox being to small or too low to the ground since it works vs almost every character including Cetrion but doesn't work vs Kitana and in some instances:
Johnny, Liu Kang, Scarlet.

If any other Kabal main has clips of more hitbox/hurtbox issues please post in here. I'll add more as I get them recorded.

 

[Blewdew]

One of my most wanted changes for MK11 isn't buffs/nerfs its adjustment of Hitboxes and Hurtboxes. Females have an advantage in that area and This has existed in many MK's but I gotta say its more of a problem in MK11.

I can adapt and find better ways to play vs small hurtbox characters(Which I'm doing) but I think most agree they would like this fixed.
I'm sure many Kabal mains are aware of these wiffing issues but I'd like to make it known to all:

Almost all of Kabals Mids/highs wiff on Crouch Blocking Females and a few males:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173462822690275329

Some moves Kitana does B231 makes Kabal wiff all his mids on shimmy/wiff punish including:
B1
F2
F4
DB4

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1173448361820639232

These are mids that don't work if they are crouching or crouch blocking or if they are doing moves that put their body's close to the ground. There are many examples of this. From what I've tested its not caused by him having a bad hitbox but the opponents hurtbox being to small or too low to the ground since it works vs almost every character including Cetrion but doesn't work vs Kitana, Sonya, D'Vorah, Cassie and in some instances:
Johnny, Liu Kang, Scarlet.

If any other Kabal main has clips of more hitbox/hurtbox issues please post in here. I'll add more as I get them recorded.

Johnny vs kabal is just a game of whiffing everything on both sides, super annoying.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

All females?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Does F4 whiff on Kitana's crouchblock even if he's standing at point-blank when he does it? It looks like he's spaced a bit.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Does F4 whiff on Kitana's crouchblock even if he's standing at point-blank when he does it? It looks like he's spaced a bit.

Not vs every female but in some cases yes.
I was controlling Kitana and had Kabal set to record doing the same thing by me resetting it.
All I did with her was pres down to crouch block while continuing to hold block.

So it wiff's at the same range it connects on block and that's the same range he is pushed back to after NDC's because it has a pushback from blockstun. I tried to set him very close with F4 because it doesn't have great range but does have a small invisible hitbox that makes it have more range than his S1.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

All females?

Not every female I'm about to test Scarlet since I haven't fully worked it out for her. But most females it wiffs. Cetrion might be the exception because Johnny's EX Fireballs don't wiff on her crouch blocking so I imagine she has the larger hurtbox of the females.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Not every female I'm about to test Scarlet since I haven't fully worked it out for her. But most females it wiffs. Cetrion might be the exception because Johnny's EX Fireballs don't wiff on her crouch blocking so I imagine she has the larger hurtbox of the females.

It's fine, just curious as to which female I need to play to say fuck you to kabal. Fuck that stupid character. lol

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

It's fine, just curious as to which female I need to play to say fuck you to kabal. Fuck that stupid character. lol

Hey its my main now lol.
I'd say use Kitana because she makes him wiff on several things. I played a Highborn in Aquamans Qualifier on the 15th and had no clue all my mids would wiff.

It happened on her B231 string alot and you know how much they use that move because razors connect on both sides to be +1.
I went to wiff punish the Kitana by moving out if her B2 range and every time I wiffed using:
B12
F22
DB4(hook slam) goes through her body
And nearly every high.


Then at point blank range his F4 and all highs wiffed on her crouch blocking. Especially after Nomad Dash Cancels. Same happening when she neutral ducks mids wiff.

Honestly use Kitana and I actually think Highborn is pretty good. Azees has her top 10 believe it or not. I'm not sure if she is that good but definitely solid if you figure out the timing on razors to make them connect on both sides and she does good Damage 23% and hells good chip 5-6% and its plus on block allowing her to poke or B1 and other follow-ups. She has decent zoning and counter zoning shown by Dragon in last major

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Yeah, that's not gonna work. If I use Kitana it will always be fan fare. That other variation is NOT Kitana.

I was hoping Jade or Skarlet would work.

 

[rainuS]

its known issue his mids are trash even Noob can d4 under it ppl just dont know and stand block expecting overheads.

There is no reason to play Kabal when we have Liu Kang, Kabal is most overrated character ever.

 

[Plays2_MX]

its known issue his mids are trash even Noob can d4 under it ppl just dont know and stand block expecting overheads.

There is no reason to play Kabal when we have Liu Kang, Kabal is most overrated character ever.

As a Noob main, now I know >:^)

 

[Error404]

As a Johnny player

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Yeah, that's not gonna work. If I use Kitana it will always be fan fare. That other variation is NOT Kitana.

I was hoping Jade or Skarlet would work.

It doesn't seem Scarlet, Sonya or Cassie make Kabal wiff. Just Kitana so its something specific to her hurtbox.

Kitana causes these wiffing problems no matter the variation so if you can get something going with fan fair its a viable counter.

 

[Qwark28]

Doom titled thread that actually has incorrect info or basic fighting game hitbox/hurtbox concepts #253

 

[DeftMonk]

Read the thread then I watched the videos after(had to turn vpn on for them to load). She is low profiling those attacks because well... she’s low as fuck to the ground. Mid doesn’t mean hits you at all times no matter what ur doing bro.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Read the thread then I watched the videos after(had to turn vpn on for them to load). She is low profiling those attacks because well... she’s low as fuck to the ground. Mid doesn’t mean hits you at all times no matter what ur doing bro.

I was thinking the same but
NaH i Tested it vs everyone else. That move B231 yes she is low profiling but nearly every other characters mids connect but not Kabals and his Hook Slam (DB4) goes through her and misses and that move catches every other low profiling move. Her hurtbox has to be as low as Mileena's Ball Roll in MKX. And its in effect for nearly the entire string except the very start and end of her B231. If you look at it again you will see it connects one time during the beginning of which she is as low to the ground as the other attempts. This tells me her Hurtbox is lowering during the move even though her body stays the same hight.


As for the NDC's into F4 that's a hurtbox issue guaranteed.

Why this sucks is because she basically only uses that string into Razors and one of Kabals strongest punishers are his KB's from B12D2 and DB4 on wiff punish.

If it was a low profiling case then Cassie gunshot and nutpunch U3 would go under his DB4 but it doesn't in fact. Sonya, Cassie, Scarlet and Cetrion don't cause wiffing issues with any of Kabals Mids or specials that I have found.
But on Kitana several of his mids wiff on her when she is crouch blocking? But other females don't?

 

[DeftMonk]

I was thinking the same but
NaH i Tested it vs everyone else. That move B231 yes she is low profiling but nearly every other characters mids connect but not Kabals and his Hook Slam (DB4) goes through her and misses and that move catches every other low profiling move. Her hurtbox has to be as low as Mileena's Ball Roll in MKX. And its in effect for nearly the entire string except the very start and end of her B231. If you look at it again you will see it connects one time during the beginning of which she is as low to the ground as the other attempts. This tells me her Hurtbox is lowering during the move even though her body stays the same hight.


As for the NDC's into F4 that's a hurtbox issue guaranteed.

Why this sucks is because she basically only uses that string into Razors and one of Kabals strongest punishers are his KB's from B12D2 and DB4 on wiff punish.

If it was a low profiling case then Cassie gunshot and nutpunch U3 would go under his DB4 but it doesn't in fact. Sonya, Cassie, Scarlet and Cetrion don't cause wiffing issues with any of Kabals Mids or specials that I have found.
But on Kitana several of his mids wiff on her when she is crouch blocking? But other females don't?

I’m confused. From the video it just appears f4 to be whiffing,but at max range. It’s not like it just straight whiffs all the time. Does some other mid whiff while she’s crouch blocking?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I’m confused. From the video it just appears f4 to be whiffing,but at max range. It’s not like it just straight whiffs all the time. Does some other mid whiff while she’s crouch blocking?

Thats his F4 after a Nomad Dash Cancel and that's the range you are at after. I was controlling Kitana while Kabal was set to record doing F4xxNDCxxF4, s4
And all I did with Kitana was keep holding block and press down.
As you can see his F4 wiffs on crouch block. And she is the only character so far I've found with genuine wiffing issues. I tested every other female that many told me he wiffed vs and none of them where legit. I literally stumbled upon this at a Qualifier in Aquaman's tourney when I played footsie vs a Highborn Kitana doing B231 into Razors she was plus 1 on block and multiple moves wiffed including my pokes to get out of the pressure. I then proceeded to wiff punish her bad spacing and wiffed into more damage taken.
I lost that match because of wiffing and not playing the matchup right
but after I labbed it up, I used a secondary and played vs the player and beat the same player 3-0.
But I've found ways around it of course but I'd rather use someone that can wiff punish her in the neutral because that's my playstyle.

 

[GLoRToR]

Jade is exempt from this. I can't even D4 or D3 under his mids. His B1 is a fucking nightmare for Jade.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Jade is exempt from this. I can't even D4 or D3 under his mids. His B1 is a fucking nightmare for Jade.

Yes I know. I cleared up the thread explaining this is unique to Kitana it seems. At first I was told it happened vs all females but after testing I've found it only happens in rare circumstances vs Scarlet, Sonya, Jade etc but there is a legit problem vs Kitana. Especially Highborn because it seems the main gameplay to enforce +1 ob razors on both sides of screen is B231

 

[GLoRToR]

Yes I know. I cleared up the thread explaining this is unique to Kitana it seems. At first I was told it happened vs all females but after testing I've found it only happens in rare circumstances vs Scarlet, Sonya, Jade etc but there is a legit problem vs Kitana. Especially Highborn because it seems the main gameplay to enforce +1 ob razors on both sides of screen is B231

lbsh his mids have no business being both highs and unlowprofilables. He's the same as Erron's B2 you press the button and there is a brick wall that crushes lows, catches air and leads to damage. To compare, Jade has b2 (the wigglestick) which is her 10f punish and it gets her gibbed with a d2 and is unsafe af AND it's a high except unlike Kabal's b1 it also doesn't lead to any damage either.

These absolute omnipotent 9f mid advancing launchers need to fucking die. If I had my way the best moves would all be highs and mids would only be checks.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

lbsh his mids have no business being both highs and unlowprofilables. He's the same as Erron's B2 you press the button and there is a brick wall that crushes lows, catches air and leads to damage. To compare, Jade has b2 (the wigglestick) which is her 10f punish and it gets her gibbed with a d2 and is unsafe af AND it's a high except unlike Kabal's b1 it also doesn't lead to any damage either.

Whao where did that come from. How did this suddenly become jade vs Kabal? Jk

Out of curiosity how are you comparing Kabals B1 (Mid) with amazing hitbox designed to hit low and high hurtboxes to Jade's B2 (High) designed to not hit anything lower than the high area of hurtboxes (meant not to hit low profiling normals)?

I'm not complaining about his toolkit just making this known to others so they don't make my mistakes. As for Kabal
he has a good toolkit of mids. I'm overall happy with them. In this particular matchup I feel I'll use a pocket because I like to wiff punish but I feel Kabal is very strong vs most of the cast. I have him in low S- Tier (some may not agree) and that's fine.
I do think hitbox/hurtbox issues should be fixed though but I honestly don't expect it. NRS doesn't have the best track record with hurtboxes or hitboxes for that matter.

MK11 is riddled with hitbox/hurtbox inconsistencys and problems moreso than MKX.

I tested his B1 vs several wakEup attacks and low profiling moves including Cassie U+3 and it connects. I also testes other mids vs this move with Erron, Geras, Liu, Jacqui, Jax and all of them connect on Kitanas B231 where Kabal's B12/F22/DB4 do not.

This leads me to believe its wiffing because her hurtbox is going very low or under the stage during that move. Similar to Mileena's Ball Roll in MKX. You could call it low profiling but its the same as hurtboxless normals.

 

[GLoRToR]

Whao where did that come from. How did this suddenly become jade vs Kabal? Jk

Out of curiosity how are you comparing Kabals B1 (Mid) with amazing hitbox designed to hit low and high hurtboxes to Jade's B2 (High) designed to not hit anything lower than the high area of hurtboxes (meant not to hit low profiling normals)?

I'm not complaining about his toolkit just making this known to others so they don't make my mistakes. As for Kabal
he has a good toolkit of mids. I'm overall happy with them. In this particular matchup I feel I'll use a pocket because I like to wiff punish but I feel Kabal is very strong vs most of the cast. I have him in low S- Tier (some may not agree) and that's fine.
I do think hitbox/hurtbox issues should be fixed though but I honestly don't expect it. NRS doesn't have the best track record with hurtboxes or hitboxes for that matter.

MK11 is riddled with hitbox/hurtbox inconsistencys and problems moreso than MKX.

I tested his B1 vs several wakEup attacks and low profiling moves including Cassie U+3 and it connects. I also testes other mids vs this move with Erron, Geras, Liu, Jacqui, Jax and all of them connect on Kitanas B231 where Kabal's B12/F22/DB4 do not.

This leads me to believe its wiffing because her hurtbox is going very low or under the stage during that move. Similar to Mileena's Ball Roll in MKX. You could call it low profiling but its the same as hurtboxless normals.

I just hate how most characters are broken except for mine XD

REO has Kabal as 2nd after Erron, though he also calls Kabal boring and prefers Erron for now.
I agree with him on all those accounts.

As for the hitbox issues, yeah. That's what you get for using 3D in a 2D plane. I'm hoping they'd fix all the shit eventually but I kinda know better by now.

Hope dies last.

Reality wins.
Flawless Victory
FATALITY

 

[GLoRToR]

Whao where did that come from. How did this suddenly become jade vs Kabal? Jk

Out of curiosity how are you comparing Kabals B1 (Mid) with amazing hitbox designed to hit low and high hurtboxes to Jade's B2 (High) designed to not hit anything lower than the high area of hurtboxes (meant not to hit low profiling normals)?

I'm not complaining about his toolkit just making this known to others so they don't make my mistakes. As for Kabal
he has a good toolkit of mids. I'm overall happy with them. In this particular matchup I feel I'll use a pocket because I like to wiff punish but I feel Kabal is very strong vs most of the cast. I have him in low S- Tier (some may not agree) and that's fine.
I do think hitbox/hurtbox issues should be fixed though but I honestly don't expect it. NRS doesn't have the best track record with hurtboxes or hitboxes for that matter.

MK11 is riddled with hitbox/hurtbox inconsistencys and problems moreso than MKX.

I tested his B1 vs several wakEup attacks and low profiling moves including Cassie U+3 and it connects. I also testes other mids vs this move with Erron, Geras, Liu, Jacqui, Jax and all of them connect on Kitanas B231 where Kabal's B12/F22/DB4 do not.

This leads me to believe its wiffing because her hurtbox is going very low or under the stage during that move. Similar to Mileena's Ball Roll in MKX. You could call it low profiling but its the same as hurtboxless normals.

Oh and as for why I brought up Jade's B2 over Kabal's B1 is that B2 is a high for no fucking good reason at all when Kabal has B1 erron has B2 etc. Characters have the same range for more damage and safe moves which are also mids and I'm like, why does nrs hate jade

But I don't want to derail your thread. It just annoys me.

Kabal's great though overall, I really feel like this is the best he's been since mk3.

 

[y0da]

If any other Kabal main has clips of more hitbox/hurtbox issues please post in here. I'll add more as I get them recorded.

I received a Fatal Blow from Sub-Zero while he was facing the opposite direction. I tried to hit his back with a B1 or F2 and I fell into FB.
Jacqui AAd me from behind as well when I JKed or JPed over her. My Kabal's head was over her character where her butt ends but the hit occured anyway.