General/Other Joker still sucks

[Qwark28]

So, I've been reviewing some of Joker's matchups and overal options, play with great players and breaking down matchups. Truth be told, Joker still has extremely shitty matchups because he can't open people up.

Let's take a look

Flash - 7 3
Cyborg - potential 7 3
MMH - potential 7 3
Aquaman - 7 3
Green Lantern - 7 3
Sinestro - 7 3
Doomsday - 7 3

and most of the cast beats him 6-4 with a small portion going even.

I feel NRS does not know what this character needs. We specifically told you we need a way to open people up. I'm sorry, but crowbar and sweep are not ways to open people up. Not when they give you almost nothing midscreen. We kept saying for MONTHS and MONTHS about how parry was a lost cause and you chose to heed the one person who said parry needed buffs ( no offense to him and I'm not mentioning his name ) instead of the Joker community and to add insult to injury, you didn't even fix our whiffing mids... We still get full combo punished for using strings on people like deathstroke. Use 212 on deathstroke and enjoy a full blown combo.

Crowbar helped his game, it really did. But not in the matchups where it counts. Your buffs also made matchups harder for Joker as well. We have some matchups that are now 5-5 thank to our buffs but also some where we lose due to the other char's buffs.

You gave us NO ways to deal with our bad matchups. How are we supposed to get in? How are we supposed to defend ourselves up close or far away with sub-par normals and a useless in most matchups gunshot?

How do we get in on Sinestro? How do we deal with GL keeping us out and chipping us, only to get in and have our toes be crushed by B13 and being put in a 50-50 SAFE vortex?

I have played vs several people that are considered the best in those matchups I listed as 7-3 save for a few, I've also played A LOT of other people who have different playstyles, these matchups are bad. They have to be played extremely carefully while Joker having no real threat other than in the corner... In a game with ridiculously zoomed out screens, zoning that is dealt with easily like in MK9 by characters WHO ACTUALLY HAVE THE TOOLS TO DO SO and HUGE ASS MAPS.

When is Joker gonna corner Nightwing? MMH? Lantern who switches sides all day? How about Sinestro who only needs one trait shot into a throw to make you chase him all over again?

In theory, Joker can do alot of shit. In practice though, and with the stupid character designs in this game, Joker is still bottom. Low mid. Bottom might have become low mid but it does not change the fact this character can NOT compete.

Can you imagine what will happen when people actually learn to fight Joker? Disregarding our current problems, what happens when people learn the matchup?

 

[@MylesWright_]

Joker was banned for a reason

 

[Qwark28]

Joker was banned for a reason

Yes, people playing him went insane after seeing what he's like.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

zod is potential 7-3

 

[RYX]

Too bad this was probably the last balance patch

Because it didn't really balance much

 

[Qwark28]

Too bad this was probably the last balance patch

Because it didn't really balance much

No, this patch was PERFECT. I could play Shazam and be happy and high, it's just that Joker is the one character left underbalanced when our whole 10 man forum had written the solution all along, tagged every NRS employee on this site and they chose to hear the wrong people.

Make a buff thread, 3 ppl ask for crowbar, buff crowbar. Have one person come up to Boon and say parry still needs buffs who has dropped Joker in a long time and buff parry instead of listening to the Joker mains in a Joker buff thread. Which weren't even OP suggestions.

 

[Qwark28]

I just hope there's a hotfix for Joker. He only needs 2 thing, F2 overhead/ mid gun with different frame data and a better dash speed. colt

 

[Tony at Home]

Try playing against AI joker on hard- I'm guessing NRS got their expectations of how often Joker players could use parry, from a computer that automatically parries freaking everything

 

[RYX]

Try playing against AI joker on hard- I'm guessing NRS got their expectations of how often Joker players could use parry, from a computer that automatically parries freaking everything

if parry didn't ruin all his set ups it could have some value lol

I wonder how it affects his OTGs, now I think about it...

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

No, this patch was PERFECT. I could play Shazam and be happy and high, it's just that Joker is the one character left underbalanced when our whole 10 man forum had written the solution all along, tagged every NRS employee on this site and they chose to hear the wrong people.

Make a buff thread, 3 ppl ask for crowbar, buff crowbar. Have one person come up to Boon and say parry still needs buffs who has dropped Joker in a long time and buff parry instead of listening to the Joker mains in a Joker buff thread. Which weren't even OP suggestions.

bro if you think NRS listens to any of us about any of our characters, you are gravely mistaken


I'm sure they didn't buff something because 1 person on TYM asked for it, they buffed it because they truly think that it is what will help the character.

 

[RYX]

bro if you think NRS listens to any of us about any of our characters, you are gravely mistaken


I'm sure they didn't buff something because 1 person on TYM asked for it, they buffed it because they truly think that it is what will help the character.

they listened to the Bane forum. We're special.

 

[Qwark28]

bro if you think NRS listens to any of us about any of our characters, you are gravely mistaken


I'm sure they didn't buff something because 1 person on TYM asked for it, they buffed it because they truly think that it is what will help the character.

i wouldnt say the parry buff if i didnt know exactly how it went down, he was approached by someone during a tournament and asked for parry buffs when he wasnt up to date with current joker tech and discussions, ed made it happen.

and to be honest, the mid to high tiers didnt really need anything e.g bane but still got juicy shit.

 

[Deyrax]

Ever heard of outplaying opponents ?

 

[Qwark28]

Ever heard of outplaying opponents ?

Yes, already do it in 80% of matchups

 

[Qwark28]

and let me clear something up, what happens if a joker player encounters a 7-3 in tournament vs a player of equal or greater skill? 7 3 isnt exactly "slight disadvantage" its more like buckle up because your anus is going on a ride

 

[ZigZag]

No, this patch was PERFECT. I could play Shazam and be happy and high, it's just that Joker is the one character left underbalanced when our whole 10 man forum had written the solution all along, tagged every NRS employee on this site and they chose to hear the wrong people.

Make a buff thread, 3 ppl ask for crowbar, buff crowbar. Have one person come up to Boon and say parry still needs buffs who has dropped Joker in a long time and buff parry instead of listening to the Joker mains in a Joker buff thread. Which weren't even OP suggestions.

I'm willing to say I'm extremely happy with the patch and it balanced the game out just fine, not everyone should be 5-5 with everyone else but some characters still needed some tweeking, 7-3 MU's suck

 

[Deyrax]

Yes, already do it in 80% of matchups

Good. So please don't cry and continue to outplay opponents. Crying is for top tier Divas who whine because their characters are not op enough.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

zod is potential 7-3

Let's test that some time

 

[StevoSuprem0]

if parry didn't ruin all his set ups it could have some value lol

I wonder how it affects his OTGs, now I think about it...

Parry actually doesn't ruin things too badly. They absolutely can't parry OTGs- that's just not how OTGs work, they prevent wakeups. As far as teeth setups, if they parry, they are still sitting in the teeth and will get popped up. Joker tends to get up fast enough to do something to the before they hit the ground, so if anything it just throws things of a little bit. KF parry might be different because of how fast it is though... I'm not sure.

 

[RYX]

Parry actually doesn't ruin things too badly. They absolutely can't parry OTGs- that's just not how OTGs work, they prevent wakeups. As far as teeth setups, if they parry, they are still sitting in the teeth and will get popped up. Joker tends to get up fast enough to do something to the before they hit the ground, so if anything it just throws things of a little bit. KF parry might be different because of how fast it is though... I'm not sure.

I mean by his OTGs, I was curious if he had some new set ups or he had other OTGs that become possible with his speed boost.


I.e if he had like level 2 or 3 parry and landed an MB crowbar, would he be able to do more with his set ups or have new ones?

 

[Qwark28]

I mean by his OTGs, I was curious if he had some new set ups or he had other OTGs that become possible with his speed boost.


I.e if he had like level 2 or 3 parry and landed an MB crowbar, would he be able to do more with his set ups or have new ones?

parry only affects walk, dash and jump speed so no

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I mean by his OTGs, I was curious if he had some new set ups or he had other OTGs that become possible with his speed boost.


I.e if he had like level 2 or 3 parry and landed an MB crowbar, would he be able to do more with his set ups or have new ones?

I'm going to say no. Parry only changes walk speed and jump speed, not dashing. So it actually might screw up the OTG he has by dashing twice and jumping past them to switch up wakeups because he might fall to fast... such is Joker... the HAs seem to really only make you able to add a ji2 in the middle of some combos, but overall tend to reduce his combo potential because he falls to quickly and it screws up the timing and spacing of some of his options. Juggling people on teeth, for instance, becomes totally fucked. They really need to just redesign his buff, but it's not gonna happen if it didn't happen in this patch. Oh well

 

[TakeAChance]

To be fair, the main characters you are complaining about are zoners/ extremely defensive characters. Other characters have the same issues with them such as Nightwing. He doesn't have a ton of options against good horizontal zoning (sinestro, Cyborg, Harley to an extent etc) and has to constantly chase the whole match.

Run away in this game is extremely strong which is why a lot of the top tier characters are characters that can handle it, or extremely run away minded.

Batman has his bats to help him get in, Aquaman has a full screen extremely quick startup tool to check zoners etc.

The rest of the cast who are more offensive minded have to contend with chasing them down, going through projectiles, getting pushblocked, and just trying to play patient enough without losing composure. A lot of people are catching on to this and moving on to some of the more zoning friendly characters.

The stages are fucking massive too. Joker will struggle since he is A)Not a power Character B) doesn't have a great answer to real strong zoning, C) requires that leap of faith to get shit going.

 

[Qwark28]

To be fair, the main characters you are complaining about are zoners/ extremely defensive characters. Other characters have the same issues with them such as Nightwing. He doesn't have a ton of options against good horizontal zoning (sinestro, Cyborg, Harley to an extent etc) and has to constantly chase the whole match.

Run away in this game is extremely strong which is why a lot of the top tier characters are characters that can handle it, or extremely run away minded.

Batman has his bats to help him get in, Aquaman has a full screen extremely quick startup tool to check zoners etc.

The rest of the cast who are more offensive minded have to contend with chasing them down, going through projectiles, getting pushblocked, and just trying to play patient enough without losing composure. A lot of people are catching on to this and moving on to some of the more zoning friendly characters.

The stages are fucking massive too. Joker will struggle since he is A)Not a power Character B) doesn't have a great answer to real strong zoning, C) requires that leap of faith to get shit going.

aquamans trident is not a problem. b12, d2 and trait are.

flash punishes string gaps for full combo and can d2 easily due to lowered hitbox and has coinflip half life mixups into more mixups.

GL has b13 and lift

most chars who beat him have a combination of

decent zoning tools
check his jumping
better footsies

doomsday too has those

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I feel like NRS is afraid of improving Joker right now because he is kinda tricky... the teeth setups can be insanely damaging and it seems like they watch that to be his niche. However, most of the cast can escape them when the know how. In their attempts to prevent another Cyrax, they are forgetting that without the tools to do something in the neutral game, he's just gonna get stomped on. I agree with Qwark- an overhead starter in f2 would help out immensely. In terms of the gunshot, I would rather see it stay high due to it's spammability, just fix it so it doesn't whiff on certain animations (Batman's batarang toss, for instance), and improve the viability of laughing gas outside of combos as an additional zoning tool. HLG has no purpose right now in the neutral game outside of finishing someone off that is turtling across the screen with a tick of health left. Same for RLG, too slow on startup and recovery to do anything meaningful with. I really hate starting this talk so soon after the patch, but it's true. They didn't fix the problems with Joker in this patch. 1f startup on parry is worthless- what it needed was to be able to be used on wakeup/as a reversal and to have more active frames (like EVERY other parry in the game), as well as changes to the buff that it grants. Crowbar changes are amazing and I'm loving them, but it didn't really fix and issues he has in matchups, just gave him access to a new means of damaging people. Acid blossum was a good fix as well, but what about all the mid hitting strings that still whiff, not just on Joker but for everyone in the cast with these issues? They made such amazing changes to some character, but I feel like they still just don't know what to do with Joker and we would be more than happy to help them out. We aren't looking for an S++ character, just a reduction in 7-3 matchups lol.