Strategy - Johnny Cage Johnny's best options after nut punch?

[Red King]

I feel like this needs some serious discussion since nut punch is the crux of Cage's game. The best variation-universal option after nut punch seems to be the 50/50:

11, F24... (Overhead guess to block)
113 xx np... (Low guess to block)

Both of these can launch, combo, and return the opponent to nut punch.

As far as I have tested, the opponent cannot poke their way out of 11, F24. They can armour out after 11, but this would be wasted if you guessed wrong so is very risky. If the opponent is seen to be blocking the string (even as late as the 4) you can block confirm into F244 to make the string safe although this takes some practice.

The downside with 113 xx np is that you need to burn meter in order to get the launch, although you can hit-confirm the np so you don't waste meter unnecessarily. However, if you do have meter then it is actually quite a safe(ish) option as a lot of players will not try to punish the blocked np for fear of you adding a delayed meter burn which would result in a launch.

Can you guys think of any variation-specific options after nut punch that might be better than this?

The only variation I know inside-out is A-list and all the rc pressure options this allows for can be poked out of e.g. you can't do either F3 rc or B34 xx sk rc into 11 to open up the 50/50 with more chip without giving the opponent a chance to poke out after the rc. If you do f4 rc, cross-jump punch into the 11 then this cannot be poked out of (it can be neutral-jump punched out of if they read it) but it seems like an unnecessary opportunity to give for such little chip reward.

What do you guys think?

 

[RWDY Nori]

I think 3,3 is very good chip damage, only thing I would add to this

 

[Eddy Wang]

As far as i've been playing with A-list you can:

11 and then throw, or walk backwards, if they try to tech a throw or poke you while you walk away from the mash, F3~SKrc will punish it.

you can also skrc after 113, if 113 connects thinking you will walkbackwards or going for a F24 or throw, Skrc allows for a punish combo continuity, but this is A-list specific.

Also i'm trying to find the timing to hit 113~SKrc~F24 its kinda dificult on stick.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

As far as i've been playing with A-list you can:

11 and then throw, or walk backwards, if they try to tech a throw or poke you while you walk away from the mash, F3~SKrc will punish it.

you can also skrc after 113, if 113 connects thinking you will walkbackwards or going for a F24 or throw, Skrc allows for a punish combo continuity, but this is A-list specific.

Also i'm trying to find the timing to hit 113~SKrc~F24 its kinda dificult on stick.

I thought dizzy said 113 skrc was punishable? And why would skrc be better than [4] cancel after f3?

 

[Eddy Wang]

I thought dizzy said 113 skrc was punishable? And why would skrc be better than [4] cancel after f3?

113SKrc is punishable on hit? because if they block you can easily back dash and stay neutral.

113 last hit is low, you want to keep the pressure and guessing game going, you just landed a nut breaker, your opponent is now thinking "Ok, now here comes the overhead, or throw, should i fuzzy guard?"

If you do 11 and walk backwards, and they're thinking they need to tech a throw or mash a poke to avoid F24, their normal will whiff and you can punish with F3(4)~rc into whatever

The second option is they thinking you will walkbackwards, you hit 113 instead this will disrupt their timing and if they try to mash to chase your walking or getting up to block the overhead the 3 of the string will hit, and you will have to SKRC to get a full combo.

the third option is landing a 11, or just standing 1, if they block it, now you do F24, if they think its a 113 string the overhead hits because that is not what they're expecting. if they block the F24 you ex a fireball because they have to block F2 standing which jails into a blockstring and you will be safe afterwards.

Its a frame trap game.

Any pressure into RC is interruptible, so never RC into pressure when is blocked.

 

[Tenryuga]

Is 11 > walk backwards a universal thing?

 

[Red King]

Is 11 > walk backwards a universal thing?

I believe so.

 

[Kelter Skelter]

I don't know how you tested it but according to the frame data 11 on block to F24 could be poked out of so I went and tested it myself and you can poke out of it free

If you think they might hesitate in the poke you can get your own D1, D3, D4 (depending on how slow they're reacting) out and abuse the frames after if they hit.

If they know what they're doing and they're mashing to poke you out of it you can take the risk for the 113 and just yolo it or you can 114 (0 on block) and you'll hit them with the 4 but they fly pretty far back leaving you with no oki. I suppose this would open up 114 xx clone xx clone shadow kick for some frame advantage but you still dont get a free F2.

That being said the stuff in the first post has been working but, I dont see it working vs someone who knows anything about johnny cage.

hit confirmed 113 into NP isnt even worth it because 113 is technically more unsafe on block than a nut punch is. I suppose people might be more likely to punish a nut punch than a blocked 113 but, that's still a day 1 strat. hitconfirming the meter use on the other hand is of course worth it.

As far as variation specific stuff 113 xx db1 (clone attack) is safe will get you a combo if they block 11 then 3 xx clone uppercut hits but... sometimes the clone just whiffs and I dont know why must have something to do with stances. In the corner it will always work of course because there is no push back.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I don't know how you tested it but according to the frame data 11 on block to F24 could be poked out of so I went and tested it myself and you can poke out of it free

If you think they might hesitate in the poke you can get your own D1, D3, D4 (depending on how slow they're reacting) out and abuse the frames after if they hit.

If they know what they're doing and they're mashing to poke you out of it you can take the risk for the 113 and just yolo it or you can 114 (0 on block) and you'll hit them with the 4 but they fly pretty far back leaving you with no oki. I suppose this would open up 114 xx clone xx clone shadow kick for some frame advantage but you still dont get a free F2.

That being said the stuff in the first post has been working but, I dont see it working vs someone who knows anything about johnny cage.

hit confirmed 113 into NP isnt even worth it because 113 is technically more unsafe on block than a nut punch is. I suppose people might be more likely to punish a nut punch than a blocked 113 but, that's still a day 1 strat. hitconfirming the meter use on the other hand is of course worth it.

As far as variation specific stuff 113 xx db1 (clone attack) is safe will get you a combo if they block 11 then 3 xx clone uppercut hits but... sometimes the clone just whiffs and I dont know why must have something to do with stances. In the corner it will always work of course because there is no push back.

11, walk backwards is to expose mashers who will try to guess 11, F24, so you can whiff punish D1, D3 or D4 with F3.
11, throw will catch them much earlier trying to react to F24
the 113 is to beat players thinking you will do 11 F4 since it comes out almost in the same window, if they stand up to block F2 the 3 will catch them low, and you can SKrc and backdash just to stay away, though is still a risk.

Cage has a lot of options after nut punch, you just don't know how to mix up your opponent, that is why is called frame trap.

 

[UnD34D]

Personally, I use fisticuffs, so my first choice is almost always b1,2, but if you're incorporating 1,1,3 into your game enough, followed by np or ex+np, people should be afraid to try and poke out your 1,1...2,4. Not even just that, but if you're doing things like 1,1...d1, 1,1...d4, or 1,1...grab, making 1,1 a great part of your poke game, people should be afraid to try and poke. I personally just do speed bag (b1,2) setups, but you have plenty of options after np. I would primarily hit 1,1... but throw in d4s occasionally right off it, so that people are crouch blocking, and then sparingly do a f2,4 right out of np. It catches people a lot.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

For some weird reason the second hit of 11 keeps missing.... Is it listed as mid or high in the move list?