General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage Hitbox issues (post XL patch)

[SmokingWarrior]

Hi Johnny Cage players !
As you know, Johnny has many hitbox issues. So I decided to post these videos here.

Against Alien :

Against Bo'Rai'Cho :

By hoping that NRS will fix this quickly

 

[Dizzy]

Some of these for sure are not bugs.

Any high that whiffs on crouch block is not necessarily a bug. Highs have always depended on the moves hitbox and the opponents hurtbox when determining if they connect on crouch block.

Johnny cage regular forceballs are labelled mid because it is possible to hit someone crouching. A high will not hit a crouching opponent, however at certain ranges JC forceball can hit ducking opponents. It arcs so it won't hit someone crouching at all ranges. If this move was labelled high then there would be a thread complaining that it can hit people ducking.

There's no good way to label a move like JC arcing forceball since it is mid or high depending on the range. It's just how it functions as an arcing FB that it won't always be mid.

 

[Asodimazze]

Great job, some of these issues have been pointed out since the first month after MK X release...I doubt that NRS will ever fix this :/
Johnny's hitboxes are a mess. Even the Fisticuff specific string (b12121212) is totally unreliable on block, you never know when it will whiff.

Also, 333 against Kitana duck blocking in the corner is not a wise idea, the 2nd hit will whiff

 

[coconutshrimp]

That Bo Rai Cho one with the EX Forceballs is like "If I don't look at it, it ain't even there"

 

[Name v.5.0]

Some of these for sure are not bugs.

Any high that whiffs on crouch block is not necessarily a bug. Highs have always depended on the moves hitbox and the opponents hurtbox when determining if they connect on crouch block.

Johnny cage regular forceballs are labelled mid because it is possible to hit someone crouching. A high will not hit a crouching opponent, however at certain ranges JC forceball can hit ducking opponents. It arcs so it won't hit someone crouching at all ranges. If this move was labelled high then there would be a thread complaining that it can hit people ducking.

There's no good way to label a move like JC arcing forceball since it is mid or high depending on the range. It's just how it functions as an arcing FB that it won't always be mid.

If a high was labeled as such and connected against a large character's hitbox while they crouched, no one would ever complain. It'd be a happy surprise. I wish they'd go that route instead of calling attacks mids that happen to whiff. Makes it seem like more of a bug or an oversight in that regard.

 

[SmokingWarrior]

For the regular ball, I don't know if it's a bug or made on purpose.
I know that the force ball is mid on close combat and full screen and high on midscreen. But I find weird that the ball whiffs on crouch block while all the other high projectiles don't.

 

[ismael4790]

Great job, some of these issues have been pointed out since the first month after MK X release...I doubt that NRS will ever fix this :/
Johnny's hitboxes are a mess. Even the Fisticuff specific string (b12121212) is totally unreliable on block, you never know when it will whiff.

Also, 333 against Kitana duck blocking in the corner is not a wise idea, the 2nd hit will whiff

Yeah, this is the master of whiffs, since it affects the main move of a variation, holding him back even more.

For those that don't know how bad this can be, watch this, where I analized speed bag move vs all the cast: http://testyourmight.com/threads/speedbag-on-block-is-inconsistent.58608/

 

[SmokingWarrior]

I don't see the point of making johnny a pressure character if he's got whiffs on his strings

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

Nothing has been fixed with the 1.13 patch. Johnny is still the Master of Whiffs

 

[ismael4790]

Nothing has been fixed with the 1.13 patch. Johnny is still the Master of Whiffs

Yep, Fisticuffs annoying whiffs on speedbag move are still there...

 

[WakeUp DP]

At first I thought Cage was brain dead and A-list is definitely top tier but after playing him for about 2 weeks I can already see a lot of issues.

Like why doesn't cage's jump in punches hit stand blocking chars?

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Guys, important PSA for any johnny player. I don't have video proof currently, but the tournament skin has a glaring hitbox issue which causes 114 to whiff on some crouch blocking opponents. I've noticed it happen twice in the past couple days, once with Kano, and iirc once against scorpion. If someone can test this against females and see it would help identify the problem properly. From what I have noticed it doesn't occur with his other skins, I switched to the standard skin against the same Kano player and it connected fine.

 

[ismael4790]

At first I thought Cage was brain dead and A-list is definitely top tier but after playing him for about 2 weeks I can already see a lot of issues.

Like why doesn't cage's jump in punches hit stand blocking chars?

Johnny Cage jp1 just sucks.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Johnny Cage jp1 just sucks.

Forget about crossing people up, you will get anti-cross up everytime.

 

[ismael4790]

Forget about crossing people up, you will get anti-cross up everytime.

Yeah. Jp2 is a bit better now though, but anyway, JC must keep his feet on the ground.

 

[Somea2V]

At first I thought Cage was brain dead and A-list is definitely top tier but after playing him for about 2 weeks I can already see a lot of issues.

Like why doesn't cage's jump in punches hit stand blocking chars?

Oh, is that right? You actually are trying him and realizing what we have all been fucking saying for a year? Well fucking interesting that is.

Pardon my French, but that is just too sweet of an opportunity to miss.

 

[Somea2V]

Some of these for sure are not bugs.

Any high that whiffs on crouch block is not necessarily a bug. Highs have always depended on the moves hitbox and the opponents hurtbox when determining if they connect on crouch block.

Johnny cage regular forceballs are labelled mid because it is possible to hit someone crouching. A high will not hit a crouching opponent, however at certain ranges JC forceball can hit ducking opponents. It arcs so it won't hit someone crouching at all ranges. If this move was labelled high then there would be a thread complaining that it can hit people ducking.

There's no good way to label a move like JC arcing forceball since it is mid or high depending on the range. It's just how it functions as an arcing FB that it won't always be mid.

I feel high would be more accurate since it behaves like a high for crouching opponents at all ranges except for full screen and point blank. Or simply, it behaves like a high far more often than a mid.

 

[Wigy]

I really dont care if people think highs shouldnt necessarily hit on crouching characters, its reaaaaaaally stupid. Hurtbox's need sorted in the next game..

 

[BigMacMcLovin]

I really dont care if people think highs shouldnt necessarily hit on crouching characters, its reaaaaaaally stupid. Hurtbox's need sorted in the next game..

Considering NRS employees have themselves confirmed that a high connecting against a crouch block is not a universal rule I don't really care that you don't really care

 

[Somea2V]

Considering NRS employees have themselves confirmed that a high connecting against a crouch block is not a universal rule I don't really care that you don't really care

Considering NRS employees don't seem to always understand their own game *cough cough * balancing and Lansdown *cough cough* oh, excuse me. I don't think we care that you don't really care that he doesn't really care ad infinitum.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Oh, is that right? You actually are trying him and realizing what we have all been fucking saying for a year? Well fucking interesting that is.

Pardon my French, but that is just too sweet of an opportunity to miss.

Well at least unlike most, I'm trying him out instead of just crying about how OP he was. Give a brother some credit!

A-list still one of the best in the game though.

 

[Somea2V]

Well at least unlike most, I'm trying him out instead of just crying about how OP he was. Give a brother some credit!

A-list still one of the best in the game though.

Sorry, sorry. Couldn't resist the taste of sweet vindication.

Thank you for doing the sensible thing and admitting that you realize he isn't this unstoppable force of win. He has always been strong, which I for one have always claimed, and he is definitely top five or higher with the current state of the game. But we should not pretend he's some brain dead OPness.

 

[IrishMantis]

I know whiffing issues are annoying and should not be there

But if you played JC since day one (especially SD) you be so relieved and happy with how he is now

 

[WakeUp DP]

If it was up to me...
I'd nerf his projectiles start up and recovery.
Buff d1 into 6frames instead of 8.
Give S1 better range to AA.
Buff his jumping attacks just a bit and fix some whiffing issues. That would make this char balanced to me.

Nerfing his projectiles is a good compromise since he is more of a rush down char anyway, he shouldn't be able to zone out char that have weaker pressure tools or are meant to be defensive/keep away/zoning chars.

 

[ismael4790]

If it was up to me...
I'd nerf his projectiles start up and recovery.
Buff d1 into 6frames instead of 8.
Give S1 better range to AA.
Buff his jumping attacks just a bit and fix some whiffing issues. That would make this char balanced to me.

Nerfing his projectiles is a good compromise since he is more of a rush down char anyway, he shouldn't be able to zone out char that have weaker pressure tools or are meant to be defensive/keep away/zoning chars.

Just no to the forceball nerf. If Cage is going to receive nerfs, they should be variation specific. I'm tired of collateral nerfs to Fisticuffs, when all he needs is to be buffed.

And about the whiffs...http://testyourmight.com/threads/speedbag-on-block-is-inconsistent.58608/
At this point, we still have one variation of Cage with terrible whiffing problems in his main string. But people don't talk much about this because nobody plays fisticuffs. These whiffing issues make the variation completely unreliable at high level, but nrs seems not care so this will probably never be fixed.