is Thin Ice better than Dead of Winter?

[JSF]

Sup I made a video explaining why I think so.

But if you don’t wanna watch 10 mins of that here’s some words:

So I picked up sub zero because I got tired of playing the worst character in the game and noticed that while the majority of competitive Sub players have been using his Dead of Winter and mixing people like crazy, his other variation actually might be the better choice.
Sub doesn’t need to be nerfed he’s just “day 1 OP” I think a month or 2 into the game people will be able to block his overhead on reaction at a high level and once the mix becomes beatable then more and more people will see the value in playing thin Ice which has more neutral tools.
What do you guys think?

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Disagreed and yeah, he needs to be nerfed. After they nerf him everyone will stick to the Thin Ice var. i found the axe and chip move useless, but it depends I suppose.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Disagreed and yeah, he needs to be nerfed. After they nerf him everyone will stick to the Thin Ice var. i found the axe and chip move useless, but it depends I suppose.

Yeah he needs to be nerfed. Look at how dominant he was at the summit.

Oh wait, not a single player used dead of winter when there was money on the line. I wonder why?

 

[JSF]

I’ve noticed that thin Ice can do pretty well against Geras but need to test it out more

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Yeah he needs to be nerfed. Look at how dominant he was at the summit.

Oh wait, not a single player used dead of winter when there was money on the line. I wonder why?

Since when Kung Lao, Kitana, fucking CETRION, Jaqui are all top tiers? Could it be people play characters for fun and Sub is not fun to play? I haven’t seen one Sub main yet there. There was one Erron, think Erron needs no nerfs? Ridiculous logic.

 

[Inzzane_79]

Played a very Long set agains a good Sub player yesterday and that overhead is freaking me out. Like even when you know it will come you can´t react to it online.

Not saying it should be nerfed or anything

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Since when Kung Lao, Kitana, fucking CETRION, Jaqui are all top tiers? Could it be people play characters for fun and Sub is not fun to play? I haven’t seen one Sub main yet there. There was one Erron, think Erron needs no nerfs? Ridiculous logic.

What? One Erron? There were MULTIPLE Errons, Sonya'a and Geras. And the tournament had money on the line. You think pro players would not play overpowered top tiers because they aren't fun? Yes they would. If dead of winter is as overpowered as certain people on this site claim, he would have been used in the tournament to try and win money.

Also no sub mains? DJT is a sub main. He lost twice and immediately switched to Baraka for the rest of the weekend.

Jacqui, Kitana, Certrion all doing pretty well, and not a single dead of winter Sub. Maybe, just maybe, Sub Zero doesn't need to be nerfed and you don't understand the balance of MK11 as much as you think you do.

 

[M.D.]

Subzero WILL get nerfed, that's guaranteed, so no need to cry over spilled milk now.

Tournament face is pointless as an argument, look at MKX and how LiuKang remained broken as fuck, "ah it's ok nobody used him at a tournament" --> LOL

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

Subzero WILL get nerfed, that's guaranteed, so no need to cry over spilled milk now.

Tournament face is pointless as an argument, look at MKX and how LiuKang remained broken as fuck, "ah it's ok nobody used him at a tournament" --> LOL

Weren't you in other threads insinuating Sub would ruin tournaments

And now that Dead of Winter Sub wasn't used at all in a tournament full of the best NRS players, you're saying you can't use tournaments as a metric? Ha.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

What? One Erron? There were MULTIPLE Errons, Sonya'a and Geras. And the tournament had money on the line. You think pro players would not play overpowered top tiers because they aren't fun? Yes they would. If dead of winter is as overpowered as certain people on this site claim, he would have been used in the tournament to try and win money.

Also no sub mains? DJT is a sub main. He lost twice and immediately switched to Baraka for the rest of the weekend.

Jacqui, Kitana, Certrion all doing pretty well, and not a single dead of winter Sub. Maybe, just maybe, Sub Zero doesn't need to be nerfed and you don't understand the balance of MK11 as much as you think you do.

I’ve got news for you pal, all the characters you listed are getting nerfed. Sonya, Erron, Geras and Sub. Unavoidably. You couldn’t counter my pointed about mid tier characters btw. Cetrion is well? Lol. Kitana gets destroyed by Sub btw, Lao is just crippled. If money is on the line everybody would use OPs like Geras, Sub and Sonya (which some of them did)but thankfully there are character loyalists.

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

I’ve got news for you pal, all the characters you listed are getting nerfed. Sonya, Erron, Geras and Sub. Unavoidably. You couldn’t counter my pointed about non tier characters btw. If money is one the line everybody would use OPs but thanksfully there are character loyalists.

Kitana gets destroyed by Sub? The why did DJT use Baraka instead of Sub against Kitana? He is a Sub Zero main.

Stop pretending like you know MK11 balance. This tournament goes against everything you and others have been saying, and now you're all scrambling to make excuses for why certain characters performed well and certain characters weren't used/did poorly.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Kitana gets destroyed by Sub? The why did DJT use Baraka instead of Sub? He is a Sub Zero main.

Stop pretending like you know MK11 balance. This tournament goes against everything you and others have been saying, and now you're all scrambling to make excuses for why certain characters performed well and certain characters weren't used/did poorly.

Every Kitana player knows Sub is a bad matchup, check her forum. Play the damn game. This isn’t a discussion so don’t get me wrong, lol, they are getting nerfed without your permission.

 

[LightsOut452]

The why did DJT use Baraka instead of Sub against Kitana? He is a Sub Zero main.

DJT simply said that he felt like his baraka is stronger and better prepared than his sub, he used baraka for the whole top 8 for that reason i believe.

not matchup specific

 

[TheIrishFGCguy]

DJT simply said that he felt like his baraka is stronger and better prepared than his sub, he used baraka for the whole top 8 for that reason i believe.

not matchup specific

Yes I heard that. And that was after his Sub Zero got bodied.

What's more, DJT was using Thin Ice. The only Sub player in the entire tournament and he doesn't even use the so called "overpowered" variation.

 

[LightsOut452]

What's more, DJT was using Thin Ice. The only Sub player in the entire tournament and he doesn't even use the so called "overpowered" variation.

yea i think he said both variations of sub are equally good and i totally agree with that

however, none of them is OP, just good

Edit: now that I think about it, subzero is the type of character that every character should be, having 2 equally good viable tournament variations, good.. not OP (im looking at you, Geras)

 

[Sazbak]

In certain matchups imo it might be better.
Against Erron the Slide and the axe might be useful when he starts shooting at you and also.

Also with Slide you might punish Jade's attempt at activating projectile immunity better.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

His best tool up close is his d1

 

[RM Ree]

If you were an MK11 dev, if your only responsibility was competitive balance, what in part would you base this balance off of?

• Entitled unpracticed scrubs crying in a toxic forum because they aren’t winning 100% of the time? No.
• Players who have been very outspoken about hating the character Sub-Zero specifically since MKX? Definitely not.
• Top level professional players rabidly competing for thousands of dollars and their tournament results? Yes.
• Ranked leaderboard statistics from the top 100 online players? Absolutely.

With DJT, the only SZ player at a major, going 0-2 with him (and using Thin Ice at that) and only 5 of the top 100 ranked players using Sub-Zero, I’m pretty sure he’s staying just the way he is.

Also tho, both variations are excellent (and perfectly balanced).

 

[Bliss]

Disagreed and yeah, he needs to be nerfed. After they nerf him everyone will stick to the Thin Ice var. i found the axe and chip move useless, but it depends I suppose.

Wrong. Nobody needs to be nerfed in this game. Nobody is even CLOSE to being broke. It's sad that you guys can't get better; instead, requests for breaking characters.

 

[Bliss]

Subzero WILL get nerfed, that's guaranteed, so no need to cry over spilled milk now.

Tournament face is pointless as an argument, look at MKX and how LiuKang remained broken as fuck, "ah it's ok nobody used him at a tournament" --> LOL

Sounds like Sub-Zero has been beating you up. There is no logical reason to request a Sub-Zero nerf. He's not even top 5.

Why are you guys even crying for nerfs when nobody in this game is even close to broke. You want all characters in the game to be shitty and boring to use with exact same frame data / special moves and combos?

 

[MKF30]

I thought about using Sub for zoning but would his Thin Ice be better for that you think? Cause of the ice darts and IA axe tactics? Or would you guys not recommend?

 

[powpeepew]

Thin Ice has a 'hidden' bonus ability slot, which is Slide. I feel that replacing it with Cold Shoulder is a downgrade. While some say Cold Shoulder deals more damage, the Krushing Blow that you get after 3 Amplified Slides will definitely allow Sub-Zero to deal higher total damage in the end. For Thin Ice, you can only amplify Slide, so you might as well commit the 3 bars of meter to acquire a sick-looking Krushing Blow that hits like a truck. Also, you can punish HIGH projectile spammers (you cant do it with Cold Shoulder) and also surprise opponents from a fair distance (who usually think they are safe) with Slide as well, something that Cold Shoulder can only do to a limited extent (its dash distance is slower and shorter).

Coupled with Polar Axe (great for mid-range zoning and keepaway) and the Death-cicles (very situational due to slow startup and is usually unsafe on block, but works well if used correctly, like pressuring the opponent while he/she is in the corner, or defending against a predicted dash-in etc), Thin Ice would be the more viable and versatile pick as compared to "OP" Dead of Winter for tournaments imo.

All seriousness aside, Frigid Storm is a joke, throwing ice cubes with 36 startup lol. High risk, low reward ability (deals only 6% damage, average projectile speed, although it hits MID). I rarely use it, and I only use it to surprise jumping in opponents, or if the opponent is outside of the range of Polar Axe. Count yourself lucky if you are able to hit the opponent even once with the full damage of Frigid Storm. Also, never use this to projectile trade, as you will almost always lose the health trade. Perhaps this ability needs a buff, but whiners will be unhappy about it, oh well. Not saying that it is completely useless, just wanted to point out Frigid Storm's limited effectiveness in its intended purpose.

 

[Versa]

I thought Sub Zero was overwhelmingly over powered and desperately needed a nerf badly because of his slow, reactable, completely unfair overhead?

Nowhere to be seen at that summit. I feel surely this must be because the elite players, all with huge egos and looking to win at any cost with any tool available, collectively decided to use a code of honor and swear off using the intricate, multi-faceted and clearly #1 Sub-Zero.

I'm thinking about dropping him for Erron, Scorpion or Geras so I feel I've at least earned my wins with inferior characters who are properly balanced.