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Guide How to Overcome Deathstroke's Guns

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M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Enough trolling and time to contribute something of value. This thread is basically my updated version of REO 's old thread. I am certain those who use Deathstroke and those who do not will find this thread informative. My objective is to provide basic and brief strategies on how to overcome Deathstroke's zoning and correct some common misconceptions seen on the forums (i.e., guaranteed chip damage on EX Quick Fire).

Quick Fire (d,f+1). High attack. 10F start up.

Quick Fire is very fast but can always be crouched. After crouching, every character can advance with a complete forward dash without any consequences. If, however, Quick Fire connects, another Quick Fire cannot be jumped out of. On the other hand, Low Shots (b,d+1) can be jumped out of.

Furthermore, the characters below can crouch Quick Fire and punish Deathstroke anywhere on the screen. The timing varies from hard to easy depending on the start ups frames of the special move.

- Aquaman (d,b+2)
- Black Adam (d,b+1)
- Killer Frost (d,b+2)
- Nightwing (d,b+2, staff)
- Sinestro (d,b+1)
- Superman (super move)

The characters below can crouch Quick Fire and punish Deathstroke when in range (i.e., sweep to mid range). Raven can punish as long as she is in Soul Crush (d,f+2) range.

- Green Lantern (d,b+1)
- Lex Luthor (b,f+2)
- Raven (d,f+2)
- The Flash (d,b+3 and b,f+2)

Deathstroke may use MB Quick Fire to prevent your punishment. However, the MB Quick Fire has even more recovery frames than the regular Quick Fire. Thus, all of the punishment listed above also applies to MB Quick Fire. Just crouch, wait, and punish. The MB Quick Fire does 8% of chip damage, but only the first two hits force stand block (i.e., jail). The rest can be crouched on reaction.

Low Shots (b,d+1). Low attack. 14F start up.

Low Shots is Deathstroke's best projectile because it cannot be avoided by crouching like Quick Fire. Nonetheless, after every blocked Low Shots, you can do a full forward dash without any consequences. Quick Fire or another Low Shots cannot prevent you from dashing. Lex Luthor is the only character in the game who cannot forward dash a blocked Low Shots --> Quick Fire trap because of his slow dash. Every other character is able to block the Low Shots and advance freely with a complete forward dash. Low Shots and MB Low Shots is the only relevant full screen mix up that Deathstroke can do.

The characters below can block and punish Deathstroke's Low Shots when in range (i.e., sweep to mid range). Deathstroke can block Superman's super move if done too far away.

- Green Lantern (d,b+1)
- Lex Luthor (b,f+2)
- Superman (super move)
- The Flash (d,b+3 and b,f+2)

Machine Gun (d,b+2). Mid attack. 22F start up.

Machine Gun is a very slow and unsafe special move that any competent Deathstroke player should rarely ever use. The recovery is too long and the chip damage is minimal despite the several hits. Every character in the game is able to block the Machine Gun and freely advance forward without any consequences. Even though this special move cannot be crouched, Low Shots replaces this move entirely. Machine Gun is -33 on block and hence most characters with a long range and/or advancing special move are able to punish it with ease.

MB Machine Gun is more of a gimmick than anything else. MB Machine Gun tosses a grenade at the end. The grenade is an overhead and must therefore be blocked standing. However, the grenade must only be blocked at a specific range, where Deathstroke is approximately 3/4ths of the screen away from his opponent. At mid range, the grenade can be crouched and Deathstroke can be punished with a long range and/or advancing special move. At full screen away, some characters can jump the grenade and some cannot depending on the character's hitbox. Some can only jump while blocking Machine Gun standing and some can only jump in one direction only (i.e., either back or forward). I prefer not to create a list of these intricacies as the move is not very good. Deathstroke players ought to safe their meter for other purposes. Even though MB Machine Gun is Deathstroke's only projectile that creates push back on block, every character can advance forward freely using a full forward dash and block any follow ups.

Conclusion

- know when to dash to close the gap
- do not jump, especially not full screen away
- when guns hit, it is best to block
- Deathstroke cannot keep you out forever as none of his projectiles (with the exception of a terrible MB Machine Gun) has push back on bloc. Be patient and you will get in.
- A good Deathstroke player will throw you, set up safe 50/50 mix ups, and frame trap you when you try to approach which is what really makes the character top tier. The projectiles themselves are overrated and easily overcome.

If I am missing anything, post in this thread or send me a private message.

Thanks for the sticky, Tim Static.
 
Coddfish

Coddfish

Noob
This is a good post. I'd like to add that Batman can punish a crouched Quick Fire with his trait bats if they're active, and he can hitconfirm bats into grappling hook for a full combo and close the gap completely.

If you're going to quick shot against Bruce Wayne, be really wary of those bats.
 
HGTV Soapboxfan

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
I already knew all of this information ( I took deathstroke to the lab as soon as people started bitching) and everything posted here I agree with. Great write up with tons of in depth information. Good job. I believe that Deathstroke is good not because he keeps you away, but because he limits your approach in a way that he controls your movement ,almost like kabal in mk9 where you had to dash crouch block under iagb, allowing kabal to ndc in to start pressure or throw because you only had one movement option. Overall really solid character, who is simple and effective.
 
Vagrant

Vagrant

Champion
Just to add to this. Don't use ex lowshot around half screen against characters with air dashes. Or if you do you better be very fucking careful with it.

On read they can jump air dash and full combo punish you for it. GGA soonk did this to me last night with supes and I damn near threw my controller across the room.
 
Pig Of The Hut

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
m2dave said:
Enough trolling and time to contribute something of value. This thread is basically my updated version of REO 's old thread. I am certain those who use Deathstroke and those who do not will find this thread informative. My objective is to provide basic and brief strategies on how to overcome Deathstroke's zoning and correct some common misconceptions seen on the forums (i.e., guaranteed chip damage on EX Quick Fire).

Quick Fire (d,f+1). High attack. 10F start up.

Quick Fire is very fast but can always be crouched. After crouching, every character can advance with a complete forward dash without any consequences. If, however, Quick Fire connects, another Quick Fire cannot be jumped out of. On the other hand, Low Shots (b,d+1) can be jumped out of.

Furthermore, the characters below can crouch Quick Fire and punish Deathstroke anywhere on the screen. The timing varies from hard to easy depending on the start ups frames of the special move.

- Aquaman (d,b+2)
- Black Adam (d,b+1)
- Killer Frost (d,b+2)
- Nightwing (d,b+2, staff)
- Sinestro (d,b+1)
- Superman (super move)

The characters below can crouch Quick Fire and punish Deathstroke when in range (i.e., sweep to mid range). Raven can punish as long as she is in Soul Crush (d,f+2) range.

- Green Lantern (d,b+1)
- Lex Luthor (b,f+2)
- Raven (d,f+2)
- The Flash (d,b+3 and b,f+2)

Deathstroke may use MB Quick Fire to prevent your punishment. However, the MB Quick Fire has even more recovery frames than the regular Quick Fire. Thus, all of the punishment listed above also applies to MB Quick Fire. Just crouch, wait, and punish. The MB Quick Fire does 8% of chip damage, but only the first two hits force stand block (i.e., jail). The rest can be crouched on reaction.

Low Shots (b,d+1). Low attack. 14F start up.

Low Shots is Deathstroke's best projectile because it cannot be avoided by crouching like Quick Fire. Nonetheless, after every blocked Low Shots, you can do a full forward dash without any consequences. Quick Fire or another Low Shots cannot prevent you from dashing. Lex Luthor is the only character in the game who cannot forward dash a blocked Low Shots --> Quick Fire trap because of his slow dash. Every other character is able to block the Low Shots and advance freely with a complete forward dash. Low Shots and MB Low Shots is the only relevant full screen mix up that Deathstroke can do.

The characters below can block and punish Deathstroke's Low Shots when in range (i.e., sweep to mid range). Deathstroke can block Superman's super move if done too far away.

- Green Lantern (d,b+1)
- Lex Luthor (b,f+2)
- Superman (super move)
- The Flash (d,b+3 and b,f+2)

Machine Gun (d,b+2). Mid attack. 22F start up.

Machine Gun is a very slow and unsafe special move that any competent Deathstroke player should rarely ever use. The recovery is too long and the chip damage is minimal despite the several hits. Every character in the game is able to block the Machine Gun and freely advance forward without any consequences. Even though this special move cannot be crouched, Low Shots replaces this move entirely. Machine Gun is -33 on block and hence most characters with a long range and/or advancing special move are able to punish it with ease.

MB Machine Gun is more of a gimmick than anything else. MB Machine Gun tosses a grenade at the end. The grenade is an overhead and must therefore be blocked standing. However, the grenade must only be blocked at a specific range, where Deathstroke is approximately 3/4ths of the screen away from his opponent. At mid range, the grenade can be crouched and Deathstroke can be punished with a long range and/or advancing special move. At full screen away, some characters can jump the grenade and some cannot depending on the character's hitbox. Some can only jump while blocking Machine Gun standing and some can only jump in one direction only (i.e., either back or forward). I prefer not to create a list of these intricacies as the move is not very good. Deathstroke players ought to safe their meter for other purposes. Even though MB Machine Gun is Deathstroke's only projectile that creates push back on block, every character can advance forward freely using a full forward dash and block any follow ups.

Conclusion

- know when to dash to close the gap
- do not jump, especially not full screen away
- when guns hit, it is best to block
- Deathstroke cannot keep you out forever as none of his projectiles (with the exception of a terrible MB Machine Gun) has push back on bloc. Be patient and you will get in.
- A good Deathstroke player will throw you, set up safe 50/50 mix ups, and frame trap you when you try to approach which is what really makes the character top tier. The projectiles themselves are overrated and easily overcome.

If I am missing anything, post in this thread or send me a private message.

Thanks for the sticky, Tim Static.
Click to expand...
shackles does not punish guns
 
tactfulgamer

tactfulgamer

Apprentice
This was a wonderful write up. Thanks OP.

Maybe you can help me out?
I use Green Arrow as my main. The following two issues I seek advice in is for the "advanced spammers" that know what they are doing and move through each super move in rapid succession from one to another. I can easily beat a casual spammer, even a intermediate - but the advanced ones are now killing me.

I call these guys spammers due to they're nature of play, that said this is not a complaint or rant. In reality these are the kind of players (though people hate them) that will make me a better player in the long run. As incongruous as this may sound, I am grateful for them. That's why I'm here in this thread posting my questions that will eventually guide me into the neighborhood of better player when it comes to these kinds of match ups.

Advice in these areas:

Issue 1:
The advanced spammer I played kept switching between ground pistols to grenade launcher rifle, to standing pistols and just kept recycling those - and not in the same order - which was smart, it accomplished what he intended, to keep me confused. When I would get close enough he would either do the flying sword spin or flashy super move with the flying boot kick where he jumps up to character head level and comes crashing down on you with what seems the heel of his boot. Eventually, when I caught on to his flying sword spin he switched tactics and moved into the standing spinning sword.

Issue 2:
His Assault Rifle Double Gun Butt Pressure Move:
When I am on the ground getting up after one of his attacks he would run up on me and smash me with the double attack assault rifle gun butt. (How do you block this? Or escape this? when he is doing this to you as you are getting up?!) I tried holding regular back button (since it seems like a overhead, but it would still connect) same goes when I decided to block low. I even tried to wake up a savage ground "exploding green arrow to the ground" on him - but even that didn't work he still would manage to bash my character.

Regarding these two issues, what can you share that would be in Green Arrows best interest to properly engage when dealing with the advanced DS spammers?
 
Xenrail

Xenrail

Apprentice
would like to see a competent flash vs ds matchup video. this shit is frustrating as hell online even moreso with input lag.

deathstrokes love to spam d3, df3, db3 wakeups and jump a lot
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
tactfulgamer said:
Issue 1:
The advanced spammer I played kept switching between ground pistols to grenade launcher rifle, to standing pistols and just kept recycling those - and not in the same order - which was smart, it accomplished what he intended, to keep me confused. When I would get close enough he would either do the flying sword spin or flashy super move with the flying boot kick where he jumps up to character head level and comes crashing down on you with what seems the heel of his boot. Eventually, when I caught on to his flying sword spin he switched tactics and moved into the standing spinning sword.

Issue 2:
His Assault Rifle Double Gun Butt Pressure Move:
When I am on the ground getting up after one of his attacks he would run up on me and smash me with the double attack assault rifle gun butt. (How do you block this? Or escape this? when he is doing this to you as you are getting up?!) I tried holding regular back button (since it seems like a overhead, but it would still connect) same goes when I decided to block low. I even tried to wake up a savage ground "exploding green arrow to the ground" on him - but even that didn't work he still would manage to bash my character.
Click to expand...
First of all, you should equip an Ice Arrow with Green Arrow as soon as you can. At mid range you can trade Ice Arrow with any of Deathstroke's projectiles and get free combos.

Issue 1:

Sword Flip (d,f+3) is not safe on block. I do not play Green Arrow, but the f+2,d+1,3 string should connect. Also, there are no mix ups between Low Shots (b,d+1) and Machine Gun (d,f+2). Just block, do a full forward dash, and block again. Rinse and repeat. The only mix up that Deathstroke has is between Low Shots and EX Low Shots. Do not forget to threaten Deathstroke players with your Ice Arrow at mid range. They will stop shooting when you freeze them a couple of times.

Issue 2:

I assume you are talking about b+2,2. b+2 is an overhead and must therefore be blocked standing. The mix up is between b+2, the overhead, and b+1,u+2, the low attack. Deathstroke needs a bar of meter to juggle after b+2.
 
Glass Sword

Glass Sword

Nobody
So the trick is not the projectiles themselves, but how Deathstroke uses them to create favorable situations for himself while building meter and chip. I want to play avoid Deathstroke now.
Also I want to see Dave have to actually use normals.
 
Dulllyanna

Dulllyanna

You're going to shoot guns at me?
From what I've seen the only characters who can't do the "block guns and dash" are Raven, GL and Hawkgirl and that's only when they're about the length of a long dash away from him. In the case of the former two it doesn't matter since their midscreen presences are so good, and HG having a troublesome matchup is fine with how many characters she screws over. That's not comprehensive though and I haven't tested thoroughly, there's probably other characters with crap dashes that get caught if they're close. Even so it's perfectly fine, within jumping range DS is taking a very large risk for a comparitively small reward by using projectiles, standard zoner situation etc etc.
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Glass_Sword said:
So the trick is not the projectiles themselves, but how Deathstroke uses them to create favorable situations for himself while building meter and chip. I want to play avoid Deathstroke now.
Also I want to see Dave have to actually use normals.
Click to expand...
Well-said.

I use normals with Deathstroke all the time. He has really good ones unlike Freddy.
 
G4S KT

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
Lex is the only character that will get hit out of his dash by quick shot or low shot after blocking low shot? How certain are you
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
KT Smith said:
Lex is the only character that will get hit out of his dash by quick shot or low shot after blocking low shot? How certain are you
Click to expand...
That information was provided by Tom and REO in their two part anti-Deathstroke videos.
 
SquirtMcGirt

SquirtMcGirt

Purple balls covering the screen
m2dave said:
Well-said.

I use normals with Deathstroke all the time. He has really good ones unlike Freddy.
Click to expand...

This. What makes deathstroke frustrating isn't getting in. It guessing do I block high, low, or risk eating a sword flip on a jump in attempt that makes him scary IMO.
 
tactfulgamer

tactfulgamer

Apprentice
m2dave said:
First of all, you should equip an Ice Arrow with Green Arrow as soon as you can. At mid range you can trade Ice Arrow with any of Deathstroke's projectiles and get free combos.

Issue 1:

Sword Flip (d,f+3) is not safe on block. I do not play Green Arrow, but the f+2,d+1,3 string should connect. Also, there are no mix ups between Low Shots (b,d+1) and Machine Gun (d,f+2). Just block, do a full forward dash, and block again. Rinse and repeat. The only mix up that Deathstroke has is between Low Shots and EX Low Shots. Do not forget to threaten Deathstroke players with your Ice Arrow at mid range. They will stop shooting when you freeze them a couple of times.

Issue 2:

I assume you are talking about b+2,2. b+2 is an overhead and must therefore be blocked standing. The mix up is between b+2, the overhead, and b+1,u+2, the low attack. Deathstroke needs a bar of meter to juggle after b+2.
Click to expand...
This is advice is much appreciated thank you man.
Amen to that, I need to start loading those ice arrows.
 
Mikman360

Mikman360

Not the Milkman.
m2dave said:
That information was provided by Tom and REO in their two part anti-Deathstroke videos.
Click to expand...
Wait, I thought they proved that he COULD dash between him. Weren't they using him as a test since he has the worst dash in the game (sans venom withdrawl Bane) to prove that anyone could do it?
 
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