Question - Swarm Queen How to deal with SQ's WGC frame traps?

[f24]

Not a dvorah player here, but a friend of mine just gave me an intense run for my money.

I'm researching around the sub to hopefully find an answer, but maybe a thread would be helpful for both non-dvorah players and dvorah players.

I play tremor and I have a really hard time dealing with the pressure from her WGC block strings and the like. As Dvorah players, what do you find lets your opponent get out of this situation? I was able to poke my way out when my friend wasn't frame perfect, but that's not something I want to rely on.

Another kind of related question, how do I deal with vortex swarm? Most of the time I end up blocking it and then I eat pressure as a result. What's the best way to deal with it?

Thanks.

 

[Sunny_D]

Simple, just cry for nerfs! Worked for Kang

 

[BornThroughAshes]

I'll give you some general pointers regarding D'Vorah's pressure which will hopefully give you an idea on how to exploit some of her options.

f112 wgc is +11 on block, meaning it jails with some followup moves that are 10 frames or faster. If your friend is using f112 wgc as his main pressure string, that means you should probably have to respect the follow up.

After a f112 wgc, the D'Vorah player will usually follow up with a stagger string (2, 21 etc), a d4, or go for a mixup (b1/f2). It's worth mentioning that if they go for a mixup after the wgc, they are vulnerable to armored reversals (but not pokes).

Poking out of f112 wbc is a very bad idea. Either respect the follow up, or option select an armored reversal (advanced players always use that against me). By option selecting an armored reversal, you add an additional concern to the D'Vorah player during his pressure, making them cautious to leave any openings (e.g go for a mixup after a wgc, cancel any string to a puddle, or go for a stagger string).

My advice is to study her frame data and wait for her to do something that makes her minus. For example, if you block a f112 wbc 2, any follow up version of the string will leave her vulnerable or at minus frames. 21 is -2 on block, 212 is punishable (-16), 212 xx puddle leaves a huge gap that can be exploited, and 212 xx db4 is -15.

Another thing worth mentioning is that you can take the last hit of f112 to avoid getting into her pressure. If you take the last hit, she sends you full screen and she probably won't have enough stamina to run in and continue her wgc pressure.

Regarding the puddle, does it give you trouble on wakeup, on neutral, or during D'Vorah's pressure?

Edit: f112 wgc is +12 on block

 

[f24]

I'll give you some general pointers regarding D'Vorah's pressure which will hopefully give you an idea on how to exploit some of her options.

f112 wgc is +12 on block, meaning it jails with some followup moves that are 11 frames or faster. If your friend is using f112 wgc as his main pressure string, that means you should probably have to respect the follow up.

After a f112 wgc, the D'Vorah player will usually follow up with a stagger string (2, 21 etc), a d4, or go for a mixup (b1/f2). It's worth mentioning that if they go for a mixup after the wgc, they are vulnerable to armored reversals (but not pokes).

Poking out of f112 wbc is a very bad idea. Either respect the follow up, or option select an armored reversal (advanced players always use that against me). By option selecting an armored reversal, you add an additional concern to the D'Vorah player during his pressure, making them cautious to leave any openings (e.g go for a mixup after a wgc, cancel any string to a puddle, or go for a stagger string).

My advice is to study her frame data and wait for her to do something that makes her minus. For example, if you block a f112 wbc 2, any follow up version of the string will leave her vulnerable or at minus frames. 21 is -2 on block, 212 is punishable (-14 i think), 212 xx puddle leaves a huge gap that can be exploited, and 212 xx db4 is -15.

Another thing worth mentioning is that you can take the last hit of f112 to avoid getting into her pressure. If you take the last hit, she sends you full screen and she probably won't have enough stamina to run in and continue her wgc pressure.

Regarding the puddle, does it give you trouble on wakeup, on neutral, or during D'Vorah's pressure?

Thanks for the info, man!

I was trying to do the block string in practice mode and found that the AI can armor out after the initial f112 wgc. Is this always an option or am I just not good enough at the cancel?

I'm not super familiar with the concept of option select. Can you explain what it means? Do you just mean using the armored reversal occasionally to make the dvorah more cautious?

As for the puddle, I feel less trouble during pressure as I can just block it. But on wakeup and in neutral I'm not sure how to deal with it besides blocking it and then consequentially eating a block string afterwards.

 

[BornThroughAshes]

I was trying to do the block string in practice mode and found that the AI can armor out after the initial f112 wgc. Is this always an option or am I just not good enough at the cancel?

Frame data wise, any normal move that's <11f start up will (most likely) jail after f112 wgc. It takes some practice, but it's doable.

I'm not super familiar with the concept of option select. Can you explain what it means? Do you just mean using the armored reversal occasionally to make the dvorah more cautious?

Option selecting a reversal means that you can quickly mash your armored move while blocking. By doing so, nothing comes out during a blockstring, but as soon as the opponent leaves an opening, your reversal comes out. It's quite an "advanced" concept and it takes some practice, but it's a good option against pressure characters.

As for the puddle, I feel less trouble during pressure as I can just block it. But on wakeup and in neutral I'm not sure how to deal with it besides blocking it and then consequentially eating a block string afterwards.

If the opponent is using puddle during their pressure, it's usually a gimmick. Since it's very slow, it can be very reactable and you can always trade with a d2 or jump over/backdash/armor through.

On wakeup, there are a few different setups a D'Vorah player might use. After a hard knockdown with big hit advantage, (b21 or b12 and even b4) your options are:

1. Delayed wake up (You'll keep getting pressured)
2. Backdash (Opponent can run in and do f112 on a read and catch your backdash)
3. Armored move (Trades with the puddle but armor absorbs the hit)

Near the corner, some players like to end their combos with f112 xx puddle to catch tech rolls. In that situation, simply avoid using a tech roll. If you get up normally or if you do a wakeup you won't get hit by the puddle.

If your opponent uses any other setup to a puddle and you get hit by it, you shouldn't have. (for example db4 xx puddle, b12 xx air grab)

 

[MadeOfMetal]

things you need to know:

F22
112

into WGC 212 is Plus on block either +1 - +3

so you can not challenge them!

F11 is negattive on block so D1 to stop pressure.

F112 launches on hit, and is advantages for D'Vorah on block, respect it. you can backdash pressure on this one.

B1 WGC is negative on block. poke out with D1 or armor.

basically you either have to see it coming real quick make that guess, and punish. or backdash out if not sure.

any of them are bad on wiff, so try to stay out of range.

you can also Jump

 

[GAV]

 

[MadeOfMetal]

LOL GAV

 

[Take$$$]

I'll give you some general pointers regarding D'Vorah's pressure which will hopefully give you an idea on how to exploit some of her options.

f112 wgc is +11 on block, meaning it jails with some followup moves that are 10 frames or faster. If your friend is using f112 wgc as his main pressure string, that means you should probably have to respect the follow up.

After a f112 wgc, the D'Vorah player will usually follow up with a stagger string (2, 21 etc), a d4, or go for a mixup (b1/f2). It's worth mentioning that if they go for a mixup after the wgc, they are vulnerable to armored reversals (but not pokes).

Poking out of f112 wbc is a very bad idea. Either respect the follow up, or option select an armored reversal (advanced players always use that against me). By option selecting an armored reversal, you add an additional concern to the D'Vorah player during his pressure, making them cautious to leave any openings (e.g go for a mixup after a wgc, cancel any string to a puddle, or go for a stagger string).

My advice is to study her frame data and wait for her to do something that makes her minus. For example, if you block a f112 wbc 2, any follow up version of the string will leave her vulnerable or at minus frames. 21 is -2 on block, 212 is punishable (-16), 212 xx puddle leaves a huge gap that can be exploited, and 212 xx db4 is -15.

Another thing worth mentioning is that you can take the last hit of f112 to avoid getting into her pressure. If you take the last hit, she sends you full screen and she probably won't have enough stamina to run in and continue her wgc pressure.

Regarding the puddle, does it give you trouble on wakeup, on neutral, or during D'Vorah's pressure?

f112 wc is +12

 

[Pygmy_Potato]

Is there a list of how plus she is off her cancels? Dizzy made one for Johnny but I haven't seen one for her yet.

 

[the.hamburglar]

This is the beginning of the berf band wagon.

 

[B. Shazzy]

idk but if a scrub named tth tries to give you advice dont take it he's a scrub

 

[BornThroughAshes]

f112 wc is +12

Have you ever managed to jail b1 after f112 wc? I've concluded that it's +11 and not +12 since I've NEVER managed to jail that. Who knows, maybe my execution just sucks.

Is there a list of how plus she is off her cancels? Dizzy made one for Johnny but I haven't seen one for her yet.

There you go my friend.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-dvorahs-wasp-grenade-cancels-work-and-to-properly-do-them.56523/

Edit: Tbh f112 wc 2 feels more than a 1 frame jail so Take$$$ you are most likely correct. But again, I never jailed b1 so I'm not 100% confident it's +12. Maybe there are some weird properties on b1 that I'm not aware of.

 

[Addhad]

Have you ever managed to jail b1 after f112 wc? I've concluded that it's +11 and not +12 since I've NEVER managed to jail that. Who knows, maybe my execution just sucks.

There you go my friend.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-dvorahs-wasp-grenade-cancels-work-and-to-properly-do-them.56523/

Edit: Tbh f112 wc 2 feels more than a 1 frame jail so Take$$$ you are most likely correct. But again, I never jailed b1 so I'm not 100% confident it's +12. Maybe there are some weird properties on b1 that I'm not aware of.

How bout the puddle nonesense haven't seen how to deal with ya plus

 

[BornThroughAshes]

How bout the puddle nonesense haven't seen how to deal with ya plus

Assuming you mean the puddle in strings, the puddle is always always reactable, you just need to learn the animation well and react every time she throws it. It's a 47f move so there's a very generous window to react and even full combo punish in most instances. I can make a video with your character and show you your options if you like.

 

[Take$$$]

Have you ever managed to jail b1 after f112 wc? I've concluded that it's +11 and not +12 since I've NEVER managed to jail that. Who knows, maybe my execution just sucks.

There you go my friend.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-dvorahs-wasp-grenade-cancels-work-and-to-properly-do-them.56523/

Edit: Tbh f112 wc 2 feels more than a 1 frame jail so Take$$$ you are most likely correct. But again, I never jailed b1 so I'm not 100% confident it's +12. Maybe there are some weird properties on b1 that I'm not aware of.

Yep I have. This was recorded after the major nerf to everyones cancels right before CEO and I showed it Paulo when I got there, whom confirmed that after they fixed the cancels it wouldn't change the fact that f112 is +12. This was done when it was harder to do than it is now, and I can still do it, just not very consistently. I just haven't practiced this game in forever. I did try to grind for 3 weeks through Jan-Feb, had to stop for personal reasons but still went to WBX to see everyone, and only today have I been able to sit down and play this game again to grind with people yet I still managed to get it a few times in the training room.

 

[Addhad]

Assuming you mean the puddle in strings, the puddle is always always reactable, you just need to learn the animation well and react every time she throws it. It's a 47f move so there's a very generous window to react and even full combo punish in most instances. I can make a video with your character and show you your options if you like.

D4 and f112 into puddle

 

[Take$$$]

Have you ever managed to jail b1 after f112 wc? I've concluded that it's +11 and not +12 since I've NEVER managed to jail that. Who knows, maybe my execution just sucks.

There you go my friend.
http://testyourmight.com/threads/how-dvorahs-wasp-grenade-cancels-work-and-to-properly-do-them.56523/

Edit: Tbh f112 wc 2 feels more than a 1 frame jail so Take$$$ you are most likely correct. But again, I never jailed b1 so I'm not 100% confident it's +12. Maybe there are some weird properties on b1 that I'm not aware of.

The easiest way to tell is to try jailing D3 or D2 off of F112, because D3 and D2 are also 11 frames. Here's a vid jailing with d3, and another with b1

 

[BornThroughAshes]

The easiest way to tell is to try jailing D3 or D2 off of F112, because D3 and D2 are also 11 frames. Here's a vid jailing with d3, and another with b1

You convinced me man! Thanks for the time you took to prove it with video footage too.

 

[Take$$$]

You convinced me man! Thanks for the time you took to prove it with video footage too.

Glad I could help!

 

[BornThroughAshes]

D4 and f112 into puddle

f112 is the only string to puddle that can be considered somewhat legit when mixed up correctly, but it's still gimmicky. For starters, every single character in the game (with the exception of ferra torr and johnny cage) can at least trade with a d2 meterless on reaction; 14% vs 5% damage and your uppercut hits first (in kill or be killed situations). Other than that, you always have the option to armor, jump out/jik, and backdash.

As for d4 xx puddle I personally find it useless and sometimes even cringy when people abuse it. d4 is +19 on its own, guaranteeing a f1 check on hit (unless she's at max distance). Why cancel the d4 to a 47 frame special move and risk losing all those plus frames and the guaranteed pressure?

Keep in mind that some characters can even punish D'Vorah on hit when she does d4 xx puddle (e.g. Jax with overhead punch). Even if your character can't punish this on hit, they can most likely backdash or jump out (In your case, Ermac can jump out). Needless to say, when you block the d4 you have a great opportunity to get a full combo if your opponent cancels to a puddle.

 

[Addhad]

f112 is the only string to puddle that can be considered somewhat legit when mixed up correctly, but it's still gimmicky. For starters, every single character in the game (with the exception of ferra torr and johnny cage) can at least trade with a d2 meterless on reaction; 14% vs 5% damage and your uppercut hits first (in kill or be killed situations). Other than that, you always have the option to armor, jump out/jik, and backdash.

As for d4 xx puddle I personally find it useless and sometimes even cringy when people abuse it. d4 is +19 on its own, guaranteeing a f1 check on hit (unless she's at max distance). Why cancel the d4 to a 47 frame special move and risk losing all those plus frames and the guaranteed pressure?

Keep in mind that some characters can even punish D'Vorah on hit when she does d4 xx puddle (e.g. Jax with overhead punch). Even if your character can't punish this on hit, they can most likely backdash or jump out (In your case, Ermac can jump out). Needless to say, when you block the d4 you have a great opportunity to get a full combo if your opponent cancels to a puddle.

Thank u soooo much ;c

 

[Akromaniac27]

Guess good. Oh, and her safe/plus staggers are totally fake.

It ultimately is just a guessing game because her cancels can't be punished, so she's free to bait armor as much as she likes.