Question How exactly do you practice counter-poking ?

[Terrencify]

I see it a lot but it hasn't happen to me in player matches yet. I always get poke poke poke grab REMIXED but I adapted to that behavior once I accepted it and learned a bit of spacing. So now onto the next counter poking how does one tackle that ? Record AI strings of every character and poking out of it ? Also what is oki pressure I saw someone mention oki pressure I'm learning I'm learning

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Usually when you block an opponent's poke they are at negative frames.
Poke them back. Throw them. Backdash. Neutral jump. Or (my favorite) throw out a quick mid and hit them square in the jaw.

 

[Terrencify]

Usually when you block an opponent's poke they are at negative frames.
Poke them back. Throw them. Backdash. Neutral jump. Or (my favorite) throw out a quick mid and hit them square in the jaw.

Don't they recover fast back into a block state. Due to how fast their poke is ?

 

[The_Tile]

Oki is pressure after a knockdown. For example if someone has a combo ender which is a hard knockdown, and they are at enough plus frames to run in and be at attacking distance, they have good oki cause they can force pressure after a knockdown and the opponent can't wakeup because of the hard knockdown.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Don't they recover fast back into a block state. Due to how fast their poke is ?

Yes, they can block the mid.
Most of the time they don't.

After poking, the opponent never really hit-confirms it and they let go of block not realizing (or caring) they're at negative frames. It's why the mid hits and conditions them to stop that silly routine.

 

[The_Tile]

After poking, the opponent never really hit-confirms it and they let go of block not realizing (or caring) they're at negative frames. It's why the mid hits and conditions them to stop that silly routine.

Or a fast low that leads to decent damage, like Shinnok's F4.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

When do you guys recommend going for D1 over a D4 or D3?

 

[Terrencify]

Yes, they can block the mid.
Most of the time they don't.

After poking, the opponent never really hit-confirms it and they let go of block not realizing (or caring) they're at negative frames. It's why the mid hits and conditions them to stop that silly routine.

I see

 

[Sage Leviathan]

When do you guys recommend going for D1 over a D4 or D3?

I think it's relative to the character or the situation.
Character's like Kenshi have awesome frame data on d1, while some others (like Sub-Zero for instance) have better frames on d3 or d4.
Obviously, most d1s have inferior range to d3s or d4s. Pokes in this game are significantly safer on block than in MK9, so there's not as much fear in throwing them out to test the waters.

I guess it's worth noting that d1s (usually, but not always) have better vertical hurtboxes as well.

As for the situation, you can use d1s to check opponents after strings.
Erron Black's 21122 is a good example where you could check the opponent after they block the whole thing.
Or if you block Erron Black's 21122 you can check Erron with your own d1, but he could predict that and you yourself would then be negative.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Don't they recover fast back into a block state. Due to how fast their poke is ?

Depends on the move. If they poke and are -7 block advantage, it just means there's 7 frames when they are in recovery frames that you can do what you want - so if you have a move at 6 frames, you can poke and they're guarenteed to get hit by it. Some pokes are more or less negative and some characters are better at counter-poking than others.

When do you guys recommend going for D1 over a D4 or D3?

When it comes to D3 vs D1 - situational, you need to factor in range, speed and how negative it etc. D3 is also a low but usually less ranged and less negative.

D4 however, is usually a space control tool, and it's low and usually give a massive advantage on hit but also more negative (sometimes full combo punishable!) whilst having more range that D1/D3.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I think it's relative to the character or the situation.
Character's like Kenshi have awesome frame data on d1, while some others (like Sub-Zero for instance) have better frames on d3 or d4.
Obviously, most d1s have inferior range to d3s or d4s. Pokes in this game are significantly safer on block than in MK9, so there's not as much fear in throwing them out to test the waters.

I guess it's worth noting that d1s (usually, but not always) have better vertical hurtboxes as well.

As for the situation, you can use d1s to check opponents after strings.
Erron Black's 21122 is a good example where you could check the opponent after they block the whole thing.
Or if you block Erron Black's 21122 you can check Erron with your own d1, but he could predict that and you yourself would then be negative.

Thank you, this is what I figured, that it's for specific situations, or for characters who have specifically better frame data on their D1s, or for poking but covering the jump possibility.

What do you do after throwing out say a D4 and getting blocked?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Depends on the move. If they poke and are -7 block advantage, it just means there's 7 frames when they are in recovery frames that you can do what you want - so if you have a move at 6 frames, you can poke and they're guarenteed to get hit by it. Some pokes are more or less negative and some characters are better at counter-poking than others.


When it comes to D3 vs D1 - situational, you need to factor in range, speed and how negative it etc. D3 is also a low but usually less ranged and less negative.

D4 however, is usually a space control tool, and it's low and usually give a massive advantage on hit but also more negative (sometimes full combo punishable!) whilst having more range that D1/D3.

I'm just wondering if I'm missing intended use for some normals sometimes. Kung Laos D3 has 4 more frames of start up than D4, half as many plus frames on hit, and the one positive for all that significant trade off, is ONE frame of difference on block. I'm right in thinking that's just basically... Useless right? Because I feel like a lot of characters don't really have competing options in their pokes.

Just making sure I'm not missing something.

 

[zoofs]

Thank you, this is what I figured, that it's for specific situations, or for characters who have specifically better frame data on their D1s, or for poking but covering the jump possibility.

What do you do after throwing out say a D4 and getting blocked?

depends on frame data of that d4, I've gotten into a habit of waiting to see if my poke actually hits or not and if it's blocked I either get counterpoked by a competent opponent, or they don't realize they can do something and at that point you are easily neutral enough to go into a string/make a read and armor/backdash/jump

this is of course situational as well because there are some characters with + pokes like liu kang for example who can continue pressure or at least instantly poke and beat the opponent as they try to counterpoke.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I'm just wondering if I'm missing intended use for some normals sometimes. Kung Laos D3 has 4 more frames of start up than D4, half as many plus frames on hit, and the one positive for all that significant trade off, is ONE frame of difference on block. I'm right in thinking that's just basically... Useless right? Because I feel like a lot of characters don't really have competing options in their pokes.

Just making sure I'm not missing something.

Yeah, so my take from that would be that Kung Lao has a weak D3 compared to his D4 since it's practically the same on block, has better reach (I hope), hits low, starts up faster. I'd use his D4 rather than his D3 if what you're saying is true.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

What do you do after throwing out say a D4 and getting blocked?

That would depend on the frame data of the d4 and from what range it was blocked.
Some characters like Kotal are -10, so their next option would probably be a defensive one.
Some characters like Johnny Cage or Kenshi aren't restricted because their d4s are -1 and -2 on block respectively.

And you have to take into consideration your opponent's offense too. Watch what you do when against fast advancing lows or mids.

 

[GuerillaTactix]

Great thread. This was one of my biggest weaknesses.

 

[Terrencify]

What about Cassie ? I mainly use d4 and with Tanya I have no clue but her d1 is fast never see people use her d4

 

[I GOT HANDS]

How fast can you actively expect your opponent to respond to the plus frames of a blocked D4? Like, for example I know 18 frame overheads are supposed to be on the verge of reactability, so that makes me think when I throw out a 9 frame D4, spend 2 active frames, and then am -5 on block, that's still only 16 frames from start to finish by the time I'm back to neutral. How likely is it that anyone is blocking that 9 frame D4, then letting go of block and throwing back a poke in the early negative frames?

 

[Scott The Scot]

What about Cassie ? I mainly use d4 and with Tanya I have no clue but her d1 is fast never see people use her d4

You're playing bad Cassies man, her D4 is one of the best. It's like +24 on hit or something and always guarentees either a RUN~D4 or probably an EX guns for chip or just straight up another B1 into follow-up pressure or mixup (I think). It's also practically safe at -7 and has great range.

 

[True]

So what's a good way to counter fast D3 pokes from characters like sub zero and scorpion?