Question - Hellfire How do you create Hellfire Scorpions neutral

[RestEasy]

Hello fellow Scorpion players again.

I just had a simple question. How do you create Hellfire neutral? I mean, when I play Kitana or Ninjitsu I find myself finding a range where I dominate the battlefield. when I get to this range, I abuse the bejeezus out of fans or f2. (For me f2s best range is where only the overhead hits. you can catch someone crouching expecting the first mid and it's safe if they block because you can backdash to reset the neutral.) but with hellfire, what do you do?

You can't turtle till you open someone up due to the massive amounts of overheads and lows compared to mk9 and his only armored move is extremely unsafe. so what do you do? I mean keep away is cool too but once they are coming to you they poke almost all of your pressure. his only good mid is back 1 canceled and f3, but it doesn't net you much unless you expect pokes and now that you can only cancel once how can you implement it?

I need a Hellfire pro to explain this to me as I'm not very good with hellfire because I don't know what game I should be making them play besides cash big damage from anti airs and air to airs, which ninjitsu already does, just doesn't get as safe of a true vortex. I'm slowly switchin to hellfire due to pressure tools but in the neutral I get bodied until it's truly my turn and they are blocking because they have to. NInjitsu to me just does a better job at making people think they have a turn, while hellfire only true footsie tool to me seems to be his long active-framed jump 3.

Any help here with the neutral? Maybe I'm playing him wrong. The damage and cancels are great but I can't see past that aside from a safer counter zone tool in the ground hellfire.

 

[Bilbo11]

Very good post, im in the same boat, F3 is too short to really do anything with.

I pretty much wait for them to come to me, or use DB4 if they are pacing, canceling your teleport is a kind of way to get it too.

Im no pro tho, only picked up Hellfire a few weeks ago, who are the Pros to ask ?

DJT/MIT ?
Redraptor ?
Mistuownes ?


...Reo ??

 

[Asodimazze]

@MurkoAiden26 @JINAMOUNAINAI

 

[CrazyFingers]

Very good post, im in the same boat, F3 is too short to really do anything with.

I pretty much wait for them to come to me, or use DB4 if they are pacing, canceling your teleport is a kind of way to get it too.

Im no pro tho, only picked up Hellfire a few weeks ago, who are the Pros to ask ?

DJT/MIT ?
Redraptor ?
Mistuownes ?


...Reo ??

I suggest actually tagging those players if you want to get their attention

 

[Matix218]

Hellfire's neutral is not nearly as strong as other character's imo. You will never be able to get the same respect in the neutral at around the end of jump distance with Hellfire that you will from Ninjutsu or any character with a long (or fast advancing) mid (like smoke's b2, etc).

Hellfire is more about the following IMO:

Punishment
Counter Zoning
Post combo mixups/pressure/momentum
Counter poking mixups
Strong Anti Air game

With the changes to the run mechanic and cancel characters in the new patch you can no longer just run up to them and start applying fbrc pressure because you will not have enough stamina.

At max jump range in the neutral it is very risky to throw out a hellfire obviously because if they do decide to jump in and you hellfire that is not a very good risk reward. The best way to make them somewhat respect this option I think is to establish a strong max jump range AA game with standing 3 which will make them much less likely to jump in and open up some hellfire use. Still not a great option though as I believe it is negative on hit.

Activating flame aura at random times in that range will often catch people trying to come in on you since the move stays active for longer than you think. The threat of flame aura will at least make the opponent think twice about coming in at this range since it will often cover both a jump in or a run in.

If you want to control the neutral this is probably not the variation to do it with though.

While hellfire shines in several other areas this in my opinion as a hellfire player, is not one of them and you have to really condition your opponent in unconventional ways (make them fear jumping, using hellfire sparingly of course, flame aura activation mixups) to make up for Hellfires short range/mediocre mids.

Edit: this is just my opinion, i would trust Jino, Murko, Raptor etc's opinion on this more than mine lol

 

[CrazyFingers]

Hellfire's neutral is not nearly as strong as other character's imo. You will never be able to get the same respect in the neutral at around the end of jump distance with Hellfire that you will from Ninjutsu or any character with a long (or fast advancing) mid (like smoke's b2, etc).

Hellfire is more about the following IMO:

Punishment
Counter Zoning
Post combo mixups/pressure/momentum
Counter poking mixups
Strong Anti Air game

With the changes to the run mechanic and cancel characters in the new patch you can no longer just run up to them and start applying fbrc pressure because you will not have enough stamina.

At max jump range in the neutral it is very risky to throw out a hellfire obviously because if they do decide to jump in and you hellfire that is not a very good risk reward. The best way to make them somewhat respect this option I think is to establish a strong max jump range AA game with standing 3 which will make them much less likely to jump in and open up some hellfire use. Still not a great option though as I believe it is negative on hit.

Activating flame aura at random times in that range will often catch people trying to come in on you since the move stays active for longer than you think. The threat of flame aura will at least make the opponent think twice about coming in at this range since it will often cover both a jump in or a run in.

If you want to control the neutral this is probably not the variation to do it with though.

While hellfire shines in several other areas this in my opinion as a hellfire player, is not one of them and you have to really condition your opponent in unconventional ways (make them fear jumping, using hellfire sparingly of course, flame aura activation mixups) to make up for Hellfires short range/mediocre mids.

Edit: this is just my opinion, i would trust Jino, Murko, Raptor etc's opinion on this more than mine lol

Yea his neutral game isn't great like, he has to cancel B1 into FBRC to get a useable mid (and that shit isn't easy.)

 

[Matix218]

Yea his neutral game isn't great like, he has to cancel B1 into FBRC to get a useable mid (and that shit isn't easy.)

It's just not threatening enough compared to other character's long range or fast advancing mids.

 

[RestEasy]

These are all really, really good answers. I did a much better job with hellfire last night. Anti airing with standing 3 is key, along with his mixups. I feel his mixups are even more important in this variation. I noticed at character length if you standing 3 cancel is important also as its technically your fastest normal cancelled string. that's really good along with b2. you know what's dangerous for more characters than I thought? long range. if they throw out a prole tile they have a chance to eat 30 percent into guaranteed pressure, unlike Ninjitsu where you don't get too too much after restand. and if they just block they are eating a ground unblockable. and if they jump that punish is free! I gotta practice the meterless teleport punish in the air though. and yeah I feel his b1 mid cancelled is key in his counterpoint pressure.

 

[Matix218]

These are all really, really good answers. I did a much better job with hellfire last night. Anti airing with standing 3 is key, along with his mixups. I feel his mixups are even more important in this variations . I noticed at character length if you standing 3 cancel is important also as its technically your fastest normal cancelled string. that's really good along with b2. you know what's dangerous for more characters than I thought? long range. if they throw out a prole tile they have a chance to eat 30 percent into guaranteed pressure, unlike ninjitsure where you don't get too too much after restand. and if they just block they are eating a ground unblock able. and if they jump that punish is free! I gotta practice the meter less television punish in the air though. and yeah I feel his b1 mid cancelled is key in his counterpoint pressure.

Glad to have another hellfire in the mix!

Yes it is deadly for most characters to throw a full screen/long range projectile against hellfire.

You can use s3 fbrc stuff in the neutral since it is super fast and has decent range just keep in mind to use it sparingly because it is a high and it will whiff of crouching opponents and it will get beat out by ranged low pokes (d4s, d3s etc) as well.

Out of curiosity, what AA combo do you use with s3? On straight jump ins I personally use s3~teleport, s3~spear, jump over 2, flame arua, 21~teleport into whatever pressure, it seems very consistant and reliable for me. On anti crossup depending on character I use different AAs (s3~tele whiffs on some females so ill use s3~spear or s1, jk~tele) and d2 seems to work best on crossup from sub zero (his jump 1 is insanely good on crossup)

 

[RestEasy]

Glad to have another hellfire in the mix!

Yes it is deadly for most characters to throw a full screen/long range projectile against hellfire.

You can use s3 fbrc stuff in the neutral since it is super fast and has decent range just keep in mind to use it sparingly because it is a high and it will whiff of crouching opponents and it will get beat out by ranged low pokes (d4s, d3s etc) as well.

Out of curiosity, what AA combo do you use with s3? On straight jump ins I personally use s3~teleport, s3~spear, jump over 2, flame arua, 21~teleport into whatever pressure, it seems very consistant and reliable for me. On anti crossup depending on character I use different AAs (s3~tele whiffs on some females so ill use s3~spear or s1, jk~tele) and d2 seems to work best on crossup from sub zero (his jump 1 is insanely good on crossup)

I use standing 3 into teleport into 1,1, spear. its less damage than f3 spear which I have started implementing as of tonight. I used to use run into 2,1 due to muscle memory, but I dont like it any more even though it nets more damage as stamina must be used sparingly in hellfire due to his need for both cancels and a way to get in. Since he doesnt have the swords, he is even more stamina reliant, and the only time I was to use his stamina in a combo is when I'm going for the 40 percent restand and the standing three anti air in the corner (they drop faster away from the corner).

As for your move whiffing on females, someone on another thread told was saying standing 1 does a good job without whiffing the teleport. I mean standing three is still faster and I think its very important in his basic hellfire game. I'm too obsessed with restand in to vortex due to hellfire pressure being so powerful when Scorpion is up close and throwing out strings on block. So I'm probably not going to use anything that links into spear until after I land the first teleport. I'm a big fan of his vortex because its free, (unlike Cassie who is infinitely better than Scorpion in everything else except this and stamina in Ninjitsu) and most characters that have free things built into them need to abuse those things so they can dominate the tier list.

Edit: Does Raptor play Hellfire? I thought maybe he was only a Ninjitsu main lol. He seems like a footsies guy to me from what I watch from him.

 

[Matix218]

I use standing 3 into teleport into 1,1, spear. its less damage than f3 spear which I have started implementing as of tonight. I used to use run into 2,1 due to muscle memory, but I dont like it any more even though it nets more damage as stamina must be used sparingly in hellfire due to his need for both cancels and a way to get in. Since he doesnt have the swords, he is even more stamina reliant, and the only time I was to use his stamina in a combo is when I'm going for the 40 percent restand and the standing three anti air in the corner (they drop faster away from the corner).

As for your move whiffing on females, someone on another thread told was saying standing 1 does a good job without whiffing the teleport. I mean standing three is still faster and I think its very important in his basic hellfire game. I'm too obsessed with restand in to vortex due to hellfire pressure being so powerful when Scorpion is up close and throwing out strings on block. So I'm probably not going to use anything that links into spear until after I land the first teleport. I'm a big fan of his vortex because its free, (unlike Cassie who is infinitely better than Scorpion in everything else except this and stamina in Ninjitsu) and most characters that have free things built into them need to abuse those things so they can dominate the tier list.

Edit: Does Raptor play Hellfire? I thought maybe he was only a Ninjitsu main lol. He seems like a footsies guy to me from what I watch from him.

Raptor uses hellfire as one of his alt characters

 

[Meep8345]

Jump kick that's it basically lol but seriously jik3 is really really good. His d4 is really amazing and it's scary to counterpoke because of d4 flame aura. You kinda have to be creative with how you get in because he lacks a good advancing mid. Just get them scared of trying to AA with jik3 since it's really hard to aa and get them scared of d4. His neutral kinda sucks because of having no good advancing mid

 

[Meep8345]

Also 214 fireball dash cancel is like +3 so if you use to use your stamina you can get a hitconfirm and be +3 up close.

 

[RestEasy]

Jump kick that's it basically lol but seriously jik3 is really really good. His d4 is really amazing and it's scary to counterpoke because of d4 flame aura. You kinda have to be creative with how you get in because he lacks a good advancing mid. Just get them scared of trying to AA with jik3 since it's really hard to aa and get them scared of d4. His neutral kinda sucks because of having no good advancing mid

Yeah still having problems with the mid in hellfire. it seems like his best bet is to jump kick in or try to counter poke with a down 4. f3 is okay but you have to be uber close which basically means you have to expect the poke. With Ninjitsu its autofootsies because you can just throw out f2 any time and it will blow up the poke. I guess I'll just have to be really careful with this variation.

 

[STRYKIE]

Just seen this thread. For the record I disagree with Scorp lacking an advancing mid, F3 has helped me catch a lot of things I thought I wouldn't be able to, not everyone needs to be Alien in that regard.

If anything, I would say:

1) it's the recovery of F3 by itself that isn't that good.
2) Admittedly I haven't been playing MKX much since the October patch but it doesn't seem you can use F3~FBRC as flexibly as before due to how the system changes effected stamina. (I could care less about it being 2 frames less plus on block)

Also, unless your opponent in a given matchup has a barrage of attacks with disjointed hitboxes to work with, the dormancy of Flame Aura activation can always make people think twice about how they approach Hellfire's neutral. The problem is if you cash in with it and they don't get clipped by it, you lose that option for 8 seconds (barring getting hit), which is an awful long time in MKX no matter what way you slice it.

So in conclusion, Hellfire's neutral, while not all that commendable in the grand scheme of the game, isn't beyond salvaging. It just depends on how you play your cards.

 

[Xzyj]

d4 is your best friend in neutral, if they play very defensive you should start to annoy them with hellfires and bait their jumps with your FBC animation pretending you're doing hellfire and then cancelling it (would probably not work on top players but it's a nice bait for people who try to react at startup animation).
If they play agressively on the other hand you can teach them to hold their horses with d4 flame aura, if they start to respect it too much just go for your own pressure even after blocked d4 (f3 is probably your best bet since it has very good block advantage on fbrc).

Also since you can't do that much pressure anymore, you should do throws and like a LOT of throws, they try to poke - whatever throw beats it, if they start backdashing your pressure mix it up with longer runs after cancelling to punish it, or crossover/jumpin(if backdashed) after the cancel. Pretty much your worst position as hellfire is mid-range i feel like, you're good at long range (due to teleport) and amazing at close-range (his pressure is no joke) so try to get close to your opponent as soon as possible and apply pressure, don't go away too much and with good reads finish him off with 40-47% combos and occasional throws

Also forgot one very important thing - it's hard to do but if you get used to it it's amazing, try preemptively punish their run-in with your standing 3 fbc, it's hard to punish this move on wiff due to amazing recovery, it has 5 active frames that allow you to punish them more consistantly and it's full combo punish on both FBRC and FBDC.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

Hellfire Scorpion wins the neutral by deterring people from throwing out their best footsie tools. Between flame aura, d4 FBRC, f2 and st. 3 FBRC they should be pretty scared to do anything in the neutral. Once they are scared to push buttons thats when you can just go in and do whatever you want.