Got my ass kicked by F0xy Grampa and learned a few things

[Kindred]

5 games Frost/LK vs Sub-Zero, lost all of them (LK faired particularly worse than frost - using WSL variation and his knowledge of the MU, probably didnt help lol) but came close with Frost and I realized that he had 3 main things I didnt have during the course of this short set.

1. Patience. Often times, I was advancing towards him to put pressure, even if I had a huge lead in health. Whenever we were in the center of the map playing footsies, I lost patience and would attack first. Resulting in a nice whiff punish for him.
2. Consistent punishes. I didnt get away with jack shit. If something was punishable, I was getting punished.
3. MU Knowledge. The Frost shenanigans I get away with against many players just didnt work against him. He knew when to back dash, when to block.

This made me think about all the potentially crucial mental functions that are required to be proficient at this game.

• Inhibition: The ability to stop an automatic response. If jumping is something you are used to (automatic), then resisting that urge when its not in your benefit is crucial.
• Impulsivity: The tendency to act on a whim. You gotta choose your time wisely. When to go in, when not to.
• Flexibility: The ability to shift between strategies/instructions
• Reaction time
• Selective attention: To be able to attend to particular cues (like your meters & the opponents, FBs)
• Working memory: The ability to update information in your memory as the game progresses

I think that people who are better functioning in those ability, will by default be better players in the long run. Some can be trained for sure, but others are heavily influenced by your age (like reaction time).
F0xy's patience vs mine showed a disparity between our impulsivity, our inhibition. His working memory probably allowed him to recall previous patterns I had done and so he would take chances to interrupt when others wouldnt have.

So I geeked out a bit thinking about those things since this is related to my field but basically, (1) I want to watch someone's brain activity while playing this game and (2) I demand a rematch lol

 

[Marlow]

What's your field? Sounds interesting.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

Good content. When you play against really strong players it becomes much more apparent how much of your playstyle is stuff you can get away with

 

[Kindred]

Good content. When you play against really strong players it becomes much more apparent how much of your playstyle is stuff you can get away with

It's amazing how much you learn and I can only imagine how much you progress the more you play with other pros

What's your field? Sounds interesting.

Clinical neuropsychology. I basically assess different cognitive functions in people who had a brain injury and/or if there is reason to believe their is a cognitive issue

 

[Zviko]

I wish everyone had the same mentality when they lose, not the same old "I lost, this game sucks" bs that we read every day.

 

[Marlow]

Probably not your field, since it's more behavioral economics, but two books I find interesting, especially taking Fighting Games into consideration, are:

1. Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise - K.Anders Ericsson. Looks at how people become "experts" in their chosen field.
2. Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World - David Epstein

You analysis above just made me think of them.

 

[Agilaz]

I feel a lot of these points are reflective of why I like MK11 so much, but also why it can get incredibly frustrating at times.

Patience in particular, or being able to keep your cool at all times, is so so so important. You can win so many matches more by simply NOT pressing that one button at a particular time.

I have trouble keeping my cool some days, not in the sense or raging, but in the sense that I want to finish matches quickly. This leads me to playing overly aggressive, and my opponent capitalizing on my impatience.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Patience is a tough one. I feel like I lose 50% of my matches in the corner with no meter.
Usually I tell myself I'll only press buttons on wakeup when I got defensive meter, am against a character that gets shit damage midscreen, or notice the opponent doing a specific meaty timing.

When I'm in the corner I throw all that shit outta the window and watch my healthbar melt while mashing 11 like a madman.

 

[Kindred]

I feel a lot of these points are reflective of why I like MK11 so much, but also why it can get incredibly frustrating at times.

Patience in particular, or being able to keep your cool at all times, is so so so important. You can win so many matches more by simply NOT pressing that one button at a particular time.

I have trouble keeping my cool some days, not in the sense or raging, but in the sense that I want to finish matches quickly. This leads me to playing overly aggressive, and my opponent capitalizing on my impatience.

Patience is a tough one. I feel like I lose 50% of my matches in the corner with no meter.
Usually I tell myself I'll only press buttons on wakeup when I got defensive meter, am against a character that gets shit damage midscreen, or notice the opponent doing a specific meaty timing.
When I'm in the corner I throw all that shit outta the window and watch my healthbar melt while mashing 11 like a madman.

Patience is really a big one for me too. I find what helps is to set goals in a match that dont revolve around winning. For instance, in this match, Im going to try to not go in first when we are midscreen playing footsies (ironically, I start winning more when I do this lol)
Or for the next few matches, Ill put myself in the corner and force myself to find a way out by either looking for a pattern in the opponent's pressure (which often times is used midscreen as well) and interrupting the pressure or looking for what wakeups he's expecting me to do. I notice a lot of people walk backwards to avoid getting hit by a U3, or neutral jump or hold block. Individuals seem to have a preference for one over others or have a sequence (ex: First they NjP, then they walk back then on the third knockdown, they hold block)

But I tell you what, being aware of ones own shortcomings is the first step if we ever hope to overcome them

 

[Deleted member 5032]

But I tell you what, being aware of ones own shortcomings is the first step if we ever hope to overcome them

That's why I think it's so important to record and review your matches. While playing, it can be very difficult to realize what you're doing wrong, but when you're able to watch your own footage without having to worry about fighting, you're much better able to pay attention to all your mistakes and figure out how to improve.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

That's why I think it's so important to record and review your matches. While playing, it can be very difficult to realize what you're doing wrong, but when you're able to watch your own footage without having to worry about fighting, you're much better able to pay attention to all your mistakes and figure out how to improve.

I fucking hate watching my own footage even when I win. Every 5 seconds I'm like "Jesus Christ, I'm a dumb fuck"

 

[Synesthesia Z]

Patience is a tough one. I feel like I lose 50% of my matches in the corner with no meter.
Usually I tell myself I'll only press buttons on wakeup when I got defensive meter, am against a character that gets shit damage midscreen, or notice the opponent doing a specific meaty timing.

When I'm in the corner I throw all that shit outta the window and watch my healthbar melt while mashing 11 like a madman.

^ Me. Alot of times i know i would've taken the game if i would've used THAT FREAK'N BUTTON for a sec. cause they did an unsafe string or special i could've punished but instead i basically behaved like prey chased by a predator and panicked and got punished by mashing. Yes, i'm the scrubbiest

 

[Kombat Chef]

@Kindred where u been?! I have been taking a break for a while we need to get some matches sometime.

 

[Kindred]

@Kindred where u been?! I have been taking a break for a while we need to get some matches sometime.

Bruh let me know when im always down!

 

[Gaxkang]

I feel a lot of these points are reflective of why I like MK11 so much, but also why it can get incredibly frustrating at times.

Patience in particular, or being able to keep your cool at all times, is so so so important. You can win so many matches more by simply NOT pressing that one button at a particular time.

I have trouble keeping my cool some days, not in the sense or raging, but in the sense that I want to finish matches quickly. This leads me to playing overly aggressive, and my opponent capitalizing on my impatience.

The game is pretty limiting in how it can be played really.

The game also lays it on pretty thick that if favors offense over defense. Defense is often a burden in this. So if you were aggressive and that was a prob, it just meant you were doing the wrong kind of aggressiveness.

And like I was playing a Spawn and he was doing 400, 500 damage combos from just touching me with his 34.

 

[Vslayer]

That's what it feels like playing against @Second Saint lmao which is why I can proudly say I'm a better player because of it.

 

[Apex Kano]

My brain is faster than my thumbs LOL

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

Yea, the pro players I fought taught me the same things. That's why it's always good to keep fighting people around your skill, or better than you. So much to learn

 

[Obly]

Great analysis. Would just add that from my own experience (YMMV), raw reaction time gets overrated. Yes it's important but I'm not sure it's the game-maker/breaker like some make it out to be.

We can all relate to scenarios where yes, we can and do react to something in practice mode, but then in a real match we can't seem to react in time. Obviously the frame data isn't changing between modes, so raw reaction time isn't really the issue. Rather I think it's about how efficiently we use our limited attentional focus capacity. We can do it in practice mode because we're not distracted; we're only focused on the cues we want to react to. In a real match, if we get too distracted to keep focus on those cues, that's when our supposed reaction time tanks.

Folks will say duh, that's common sense--but I think it's important. You can't easily train up your raw reaction time, but you can train yourself to make more efficient use of your attentional focus.

I think it mostly requires lots and lots of high-quality practice. The idea is to make as much automatic as possible: your execution, your spacing, your matching of specific moves to specific situations. Once you no longer have to think about and pay attention to any of that (it's on auto-pilot), you can devote all your attention to tracking your opponent's cues.

It also comes from experience. You don't necessarily want to try to react to a very fast cue itself (e.g., oppo entering a fireball motion), but rather react to the game situation, quickly noticing when something like a fireball or jump-in has become more likely, and adapting accordingly. Kind of a mental heads-up to cue you to focus your attention on reacting to that action when it comes.

All to say, I don't think someone should give up on learning FGs just because they're "old". Yes, reaction time and neuroplasticity (your brain's capacity to lay down new pathways in reaction to learning) decline with age, but I do think practice and experience are more important than age.

(1) I want to watch someone's brain activity while playing this game

Random speculation here, but I'm betting you'd see a lot of activity in the higher-level associational areas (e.g., connecting to our stored memories and relating them to current experience), similar to what you'd see if you just asked a high-level player to talk about playing. It wouldn't just be lightning bolts in visual processing centers or parts of our lower lizard-brain.

 

[Kindred]

Great analysis. Would just add that from my own experience (YMMV), raw reaction time gets overrated. Yes it's important but I'm not sure it's the game-maker/breaker like some make it out to be.

We can all relate to scenarios where yes, we can and do react to something in practice mode, but then in a real match we can't seem to react in time. Obviously the frame data isn't changing between modes, so raw reaction time isn't really the issue. Rather I think it's about how efficiently we use our limited attentional focus capacity. We can do it in practice mode because we're not distracted; we're only focused on the cues we want to react to. In a real match, if we get too distracted to keep focus on those cues, that's when our supposed reaction time tanks.

Folks will say duh, that's common sense--but I think it's important. You can't easily train up your raw reaction time, but you can train yourself to make more efficient use of your attentional focus.

I think it mostly requires lots and lots of high-quality practice. The idea is to make as much automatic as possible: your execution, your spacing, your matching of specific moves to specific situations. Once you no longer have to think about and pay attention to any of that (it's on auto-pilot), you can devote all your attention to tracking your opponent's cues.

It also comes from experience. You don't necessarily want to try to react to a very fast cue itself (e.g., oppo entering a fireball motion), but rather react to the game situation, quickly noticing when something like a fireball or jump-in has become more likely, and adapting accordingly. Kind of a mental heads-up to cue you to focus your attention on reacting to that action when it comes.

All to say, I don't think someone should give up on learning FGs just because they're "old". Yes, reaction time and neuroplasticity (your brain's capacity to lay down new pathways in reaction to learning) decline with age, but I do think practice and experience are more important than age.


Random speculation here, but I'm betting you'd see a lot of activity in the higher-level associational areas (e.g., connecting to our stored memories and relating them to current experience), similar to what you'd see if you just asked a high-level player to talk about playing. It wouldn't just be lightning bolts in visual processing centers or parts of our lower lizard-brain.

I love this!
So I've thought about this a lot and indeed Reaction time is overrated. I think it plays a role in the overall performance but how much of the overall performance pie chart does it take up vs other cognitive functions is hard to say.

I noticed a form of primed response (often caused by some form of conditioning) in this game and I see it in many situations....
An example I can think of is on wakeup. The brain functions by predictions and what is the most likely scenario based on previous experience. If the opponent regularly wakes up with the one-hit U3 in a given situation, then the aggressor will be primed to block long enough for the single-hit U3 to come out and resume his turn. In moments like these, if the downed opponent wakes up with a multi-hit string instead, the first hit will be blocked but often times the remaining hits land because the opponent was primed for a single hit (U3).

From what I know, in terms of the locality of the executive functions listed in my original post, I would expect a lot of frontal lobe activity and many sub-cortical regions as well. However putting a person playing MK in a brain scan wouldn't really reveal much (other than just activity in many areas).
Here's what I think would be very cool

1. Emit hypotheses as to what brain activity you expect to see based on the different situations in a match (when doing a combo, when interrupting, when trying to get out of the corner, when on Oki, etc) based on available cognitive models.
2. Recruit many MK players and have them play matches while their brain activity is being monitored.
3. Identifying the situations in a match and correlate it with associated brain activity patterns for all your participants
4. Test your hypothesis
5. Publish your results
6. Start your own research field and call it NeuroKombat

And thats not even talking about the emotional centers modulating the whole thing!

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Brain Activity while playing short KL sets would be extremely fascinating to see.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

Since there's interest in reaction times. It's mostly about being alert and prepared. Reacting to 26 frame overheads can be hard when you're trying to react to staggers, throws, dashes, and jumps at the same time. Focusing on what you're trying to react to is the majority of the battle.

Wrestling improved my reactions quite a lot but when I'm anxious or phoning it in I get hit by shit all the time. I can shift my whole body to assist for a powerslam I didn't know was coming but I can't anti-air Kitana crossing me up consistently

 

[Liquid Swordsman]

5 games Frost/LK vs Sub-Zero, lost all of them (LK faired particularly worse than frost - using WSL variation and his knowledge of the MU, probably didnt help lol) but came close with Frost and I realized that he had 3 main things I didnt have during the course of this short set.

1. Patience. Often times, I was advancing towards him to put pressure, even if I had a huge lead in health. Whenever we were in the center of the map playing footsies, I lost patience and would attack first. Resulting in a nice whiff punish for him.
2. Consistent punishes. I didnt get away with jack shit. If something was punishable, I was getting punished.
3. MU Knowledge. The Frost shenanigans I get away with against many players just didnt work against him. He knew when to back dash, when to block.

This made me think about all the potentially crucial mental functions that are required to be proficient at this game.

• Inhibition: The ability to stop an automatic response. If jumping is something you are used to (automatic), then resisting that urge when its not in your benefit is crucial.
• Impulsivity: The tendency to act on a whim. You gotta choose your time wisely. When to go in, when not to.
• Flexibility: The ability to shift between strategies/instructions
• Reaction time
• Selective attention: To be able to attend to particular cues (like your meters & the opponents, FBs)
• Working memory: The ability to update information in your memory as the game progresses

I think that people who are better functioning in those ability, will by default be better players in the long run. Some can be trained for sure, but others are heavily influenced by your age (like reaction time).
F0xy's patience vs mine showed a disparity between our impulsivity, our inhibition. His working memory probably allowed him to recall previous patterns I had done and so he would take chances to interrupt when others wouldnt have.

So I geeked out a bit thinking about those things since this is related to my field but basically, (1) I want to watch someone's brain activity while playing this game and (2) I demand a rematch lol

I've been struggling a lot against pro players, so this is really great to know. I'll try to keep all of this mind when heading into another online battle.