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Enlighten me TYM.. (a facebook conversation)

Indecision

Indecision

Noob
So I recently had a discussion with a friend about fighting games... but the conversation didn't take long to suddenly jump into balance in regards to cammy from SFIV:AE. Let me just share a couple parts. I feel like this relates to a great majority of people who post on here. The whole whiny attitude thing truly baffles me.


Me
people like you and me though
this doesn't concern us
this is only for top level play
Ben

lol yes it does affect us
Me

any good player would never lose to your friends cammy
Ben

since her combos are actaulyl easy to execute
Me

so no it doesn't matter
it matters to people like infiltration
you and your buddy are no where near the skill ceiling
you worry about balance too much
Ben

dude
it matters on all levels
you see TONS of cammys online
why is it
shes really strong
Me

because "trends"
tons of scorpions online too
do i bitch?
no i focus on winning
Ben

LOL
ok
Me

just sayin man
Ben

go play sf
not saying shes unbeatable but damn shes rough
i can punish people who go in todeep on my geif
but if they know the match up im done
since cammy is beast
Me

here's the truth ben
i can become a beast at whatever i put my mind to
balance is not a factor
i will just win because i decide to
that's the correct attitude
Ben

lol you think i have a bad attitude?
ROFL
Me

it's not a positive one at least
Ben

I'm realistic in character balance
shes needs tweeks to not make her bonkers
Me

you care about balance
I don't
cause I know my time investment is what determines wins and losses
not the pr department's willingness to listen to bitches

Me
any "problem" you have against the players you go up against can be remedied by just getting better
it's only a real problem when you're actually touching the skill ceiling and you're legit out of options
Ben

I have gotten much better but when facing certain opponents there are character balance issues
will i ever be good as diago or infiltration
no i wont
but when the players in the top 8 of last year's evo even say cammy is a problem and t seems to be an overall consensus then yes there is clearly an issue
so there is a trickle down effect
Me

top players complain because they're touching the skill ceiling and are out of options
the scrubs then chime in to complain also
cause they're lazy and want to "win"
Ben

a shot at me?
Me

yeah at everyone
Ben

lol
Me

all those jackasses on the forums
Ben

i play a bottom teir character because i have fun
Me

then have fun!
stop caring about balance
what do you care?
if it's just for "fun"
does winning really matter that much?
if it's for fun?
Ben

if i cared about winning every match I'd be playing cammy
Me
great
so don't complain then
it's like legit irrational
what you're saying and doing
Ben

when the fun gets sucked out of the game cuz of a blatant balance issue then there neds to be changes even if it's small
Me

lol omg
you're too much
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see this exact personality allllll over TYM. Seriously when you get down to it...why should anyone who isn't anywhere near the skill ceiling have a say in anything related to balance? Why should they even care? So yeah thoughts! gogo ;)
 
D

deathblooms2k4

Apprentice
Balance adds diversity, Diversity increases replayability. Look up the "Law of diminishing returns", it pretty much applies to everything in life but in this particular case it showcases why having a linear game without much diversity in character selection is bad. And that's the underlying issue here, if Cammy is too powerful than the character is going to be picked a lot by people who are overly concerned about winning. And while your buddy may not pick Cammy himself he still has to play against a lot of people who do which is going to start to become boring and his gaming experience (fun in particular) will become subject to the law of diminishing returns. This is why balance is important in fighters. And just because your friend is not a top level player does not invalidate his opinion on balance, clearly you both follow the pro scene pretty well. In some cases even if you do not play at their (pros) level you can still use common sense to see if something is out of alignment with the rest, in many cases there are hard numbers and statistics that will also back up such analysis.

As a side note, we can somewhat understand the motivation of some developers to cater to the online crowd when balancing. They want people to keep playing their game. It's unfortunate for the competitive scene but it makes sense from a business stand point. Something I'd like to see is a developer that creates a tournament mode in games so that they can apply patches separately to cater to both pools of players. Valve treats dota 2 this way, they have captains mode where heroes are not available to be selected until they have been released and tested over a period of time.
 
Indecision

Indecision

Noob
deathblooms2k4 said:
Balance adds diversity, Diversity increases replayability. Look up the "Law of diminishing returns", it pretty much applies to everything in life but in this particular case it showcases why having a linear game without much diversity in character selection is bad. And that's the underlying issue here, if Cammy is too powerful than the character is going to be picked a lot by people who are overly concerned about winning. And while your buddy may not pick Cammy himself he still has to play against a lot of people who do which is going to start to become boring and his gaming experience (fun in particular) will become subject to the law of diminishing returns. This is why balance is important in fighters. And just because your friend is not a top level player does not invalidate his opinion on balance, clearly you both follow the pro scene pretty well. In some cases even if you do not play at their (pros) level you can still use common sense to see if something is out of alignment with the rest, in many cases there are hard numbers and statistics that will also back up such analysis.

As a side note, we can somewhat understand the motivation of some developers to cater to the online crowd when balancing. They want people to keep playing their game. It's unfortunate for the competitive scene but it makes sense from a business stand point. Something I'd like to see is a developer that creates a tournament mode in games so that they can apply patches separately to cater to both pools of players. Valve treats dota 2 this way, they have captains mode where heroes are not available to be selected until they have been released and tested over a period of time.
Click to expand...
Y'know everything you said makes sense and yet I hate to hear it all the same haha ^ I just greatly dislike the idea of someone caring to such an extent about something like this but not having any intention of becoming a good player. I feel people like him are just being petty. I really do. Why play a competitive game with a competitive mindset if you're not going to get competitive? If it's for fun then stop playing it as soon as it becomes not fun. This generation of people who think they're so entitled is just ridiculous to me. Get better or just stop playing.

but yeah that dota2 balance process is actually really cool sounding. appreciate the insight
 
mistermoo

mistermoo

Noob
Indecision said:
why should anyone who isn't anywhere near the skill ceiling have a say in anything related to balance? Why should they even care?
Click to expand...

Because this game is funded primarily by casual players.

You do realize you're being an arrogant elitist about a game in which a guy dressed as a bat fights a telekinetic tranny with a demon for a dad? Ok, just making sure.

There's a reason league of legends is one of the most popular games in the world right now, like it or not it's because Riot listens to the concerns of their average customers.
 
Indecision

Indecision

Noob
mistermoo said:
Because this game is funded primarily by casual players.

You do realize you're being an arrogant elitist about a game in which a guy dressed as a bat fights a telekinetic tranny with a demon for a dad? Ok, just making sure.
Click to expand...
they should care about balance because this game is funded by casual players? what? I don't think you answered the question at all.

And I don't think the plot has jack shit to do with what I'm talking about.
 
LOCO

LOCO

DADDY BARAKA
why should non tournament players care bout balance?
simple
it takes the fun factor out

no fun no players no evolving scene which ultimately ends with an abandoned game

its funny how people complain about other people complaing

there wouldn't be so much scrubs if there wasn't so much narcissists
 
Indecision

Indecision

Noob
LOCO said:
why should non tournament players care bout balance?
simple
it takes the fun factor out

no fun no players no evolving scene which ultimately ends with an abandoned game

its funny how people complain about other people complaing

there wouldn't be so much scrubs if there wasn't so much narcissists
Click to expand...
if there weren't so many*
and...I sincerely doubt it haha
 
1

1truking

Apprentice
LOCO said:
why should non tournament players care bout balance?
simple
it takes the fun factor out

no fun no players no evolving scene which ultimately ends with an abandoned game

its funny how people complain about other people complaing

there wouldn't be so much scrubs if there wasn't so much narcissists
Click to expand...

Problem is that most casual players don't understand what makes something good/bad. If you listen to these people bad characters get nerfed. I was told that grundy is top tier because I was destroying a room of online warriors and I'm a tournament player. I can take the fun out of the game for any casual player even if I used a low tier character. For the most part what the casuals complain about isn't even broken or difficult to beat.

If everything that the casual wanted was implemented we would end up with a dead tournament game even if it was played casually. you'd end up with another killer instinct. Casuals loved it tournament players hated it because it was utter trash
 
LOCO

LOCO

DADDY BARAKA
your talking bout bitches
im talking bout casual fighting game fans like ben in the op

let the bitches cry
 
LOCO

LOCO

DADDY BARAKA
Indecision
if you sit on a throne then you take a shit on everyone
if you see eye to eye u can pick and choose hoo deserves to eat it

if your going to judge in the first place dat is



gramma n spell check button ran away
 
AZ MotherBrain

AZ MotherBrain

If you believe enough, -7 could be +7
if your friend wants a balanced game, tell him to play divekick. Fighting games aren't meant to be perfectly balanced, every game has the top tiers and ass characters and that's okay. Every character has potential to beat any character in any game, its up to the player to make it happen.
 
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