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Counterpicking

MKB

Forum General Emeritus
If one were to endulge in counterpicking, how could you most easily identify them? I know certain characters are more easily beatable than others. Fill in the blanks if you know the answers. I'll list the character, and then the person most people counterpick with.

Liu = Liu/Jax
Kung = ???
Cage = take your pick, lol
Reptile = ???
Sub = Jax
Shang = ???
Kitana = ???
Jax = Liu/Jax
Mileena = Raiden
Baraka = take your pick, lol
Scorpion = Liu (low toe)
Raiden = ???
 
Ok, here we go:

Liu = Mileena. Low fireball spam gets a teleport kick, and high fireball gets a roll.

Kung = Scorpion. Teleport gives a spear (if timed well) and blocked dive kick is free spear, spear, uppercut.

Cage = He's a [ban incoming]. Pick whoever

Reptile = Sub I guess. Slide is countered by ground freeze, and forceball is so slow that you can easily freeze them. Also easy to freeze during acid spit because of its long recovery.

Sub = Raiden. As long as you don't torpedo right into his ice, you can teleport and keep pressure on him fairly well. Wait just outside sweep range and when he tries to ground freeze, teleport and start jabs or shock grab, RH.

Shang = Sub. Skull spam= frozen. I'll trade the damage for a Jk, ground freeze, uppercut.

Kitana =Sub. Chances are she won't be throwing a lot of ground fans (if she does I think you could just slide under them) but most of the time ice will beat out an air fan as Sub ducks when he freezes so the fan goes over his head and freezes her in midair. Ground freeze for random square wave punches.

Jax = Mileena. Spam that shit bro

Mileena = Raiden. If you can get in for jabs, you have a good chance of locking her down. A well-timed teleport should get behind her sais.

Baraka = Sub. Freeze for sparks, jump in's eat a RH and botched blade furies get ground freeze.

Scorpion = Liu. Like DCI said, low toe that bitch.

Raiden = Shang. Jabs.
 

MKB

Forum General Emeritus
frznsldr said:
great jomamma smurf is gnna c this shit.
Speaking of that assclown, I just happened upon him in the lobby. Waxed his noob Raiden spamming ass and he quit before the fatality.
 

btbb99

Noob
lol jomammasmurf is the biggest fuckin clown on psn lol... on 2 separate occasions i beat him on the first match and he quits before i could do the fatality just like dci said lol.. then after the first time i beat him i send a lol message then he literally sent me anywhere between 10- 15 messages back callin me a pussy lol what a fuckin clown.... and he sent me another 10-15 after the 2nd occasion too... and i just said i ain't playin this dude anymore
 
I use liu for mileena spammers but the game is very boring. Skilled spammers will just wait and block to see if you'll move and when they get the chance they go for you (if timing is right) they can win almost all their matches. I hate spammers, I only like scorps liu all the others like ahimsa are shit.
 
Here's what I agree/disagree with-

ScheissNussen said:
Here's what I agree/disagree with-

Liu = Liu/Jax - agreed
Kung = Kit, jax, scorp - disagree with Kitana and Scorp. Kitana is even with Lao; she can't easily out turtle him; she'll try to confuse with air fans, square wave punches, and bait into fan waves, but patient Lao's will cut her off with well timed throws, uppercut her out of her square waves, and bait into tornado spins. Scorp is a good counterpick if you're playing an overaggressive Lao who won't stop coming at you with dive kicks and teleports, but patient Lao's can easily out turtle Scorp with kara jabs; if he starts throwing spears for chip, throw hats. If he walks up, he gets low toed; he tries crossovers and gets destroyed with uppercuts and tornado spin combos. Blocked teleports are worth a free roundhouse, if not uppercut. I would, however, add Mileena; she can spam him with sais from full screen or get close and put on jab pressure. He'll counter with low toes, you counter with ground rolls. As long as you don't jump in (tornadoes and easy aa uppercuts), you should beat him most of the time.
Cage = * - Yeah. It hurts because I love Cage, but yeah.
Reptile = * - Definitely.
Sub = Jax/mil/liu. Agreed.
Shang = (w/no morph) Sub, Raiden depends - Strongly disagree. Sub players try to back off and turtle against Shang, but if the Shang player backs up too, there isn't anything they can do. Eventually, the Sub player will be forced to fight; up close Shang destroys Sub, no questions. It's trickier around sweep distance, but good Shangs will only hang around sweep distance long enough to bait a ground freeze and counter it. Shang destroys Subbie. Shang also destroys Raiden; Shang is one of the few (or only) chars who can duck under torpedo from any distance; Shang's sweep has priority over Raiden's, his JK has priority over Raiden's, he can duck under Raiden jabs, and upclose Shang destroys Raiden with jabs, sweeps, crossovers, and throws. Shang can also lock himself down in the corner and spam fireballs and there isn't a damn thing Raiden can do about it; the skulls will aa most of Raiden's jumpins, they will also knock him right out of his teleport and torpedo.

Shang's counterpick is Liu; there's little Shang can do against a Liu spammer other than morph into Liu and temporarily return fire. Mileena, while not as effective as Liu, should also beat Shang most of the time and can easily outspam him.


Kitana = Kitana, Shang - I would replace Kitana with Mileena. Unless Kitana gets lucky with a big fan wave juggle, Mileena owns her 3 out of 4 times.
Jax = Liu/Jax/Mil - agreed. I would also add that Kitana does a good job of confusing most online Jax turtles, and Shang can return fire on GPs with three fireballs (damage is roughly equal; timed correctly, the last skull WILL hit Jax) and force Jax to bring the fight to him. From there, Shang DESTROYS Jax with jabs; he's the easiest character to lock down with jabs. He will try to avoid this by doing 10 million crossovers, but unless the opposing player's timing is much better than yours (i.e. how I always lose the Shang/Jax match), you will get him.

Mileena = Raiden, scorp, liu, jax - I'd take Jax off. Maybe it's just because I suck with Jax, but I think Mileena should win that fight 6 times out of 10, if not more. Scorp, also.
Baraka = Sub, raiden, shang - Absolutely. Sub owns him; RH for aa, freezing right under his blade spark, etc. Raiden vs. Baraka is easily one of the most lopsided matchups in the game. Shang is a good counter if you can get the the back of the screen and turtle; you can spam fireballs and give him a break just long enough to let him get close you. Jabs = YOU WIN.
Scorpion = Liu (low toe) - I would add Shang Tsung and Mileena. Scorpion is almost helpless against the Shang of an equal or superior player. Kara jabs effectively destroy Scorps annoying attempts to turtle and teleport; eventually the Scorp will get frustrated and start throwing out spears, at which point you can easily make up for the damage with just one skull. He'll either get pissed off and start to come at you (which you can turn into an upclose fight that Shang will always win), or even better, will be stupid and teleport anyway. At this point you can either feed him an easy uppercut/HK or you can let him bounce off and murder him with jabs/sweeps/throws/crossovers. The strategy is the same with Mileena, except she can more effectively destroy crossover attempts (ground rolls, telekicks).
Raiden = Lao, scorp - Agreed. I would also add Shang Tsung; fireballs destroy jumpins and torpedo spam. I think I already explained this above, too.

Feel free to disagree with anything I said and to share your reasons why.
 

dvdcsn

Noob
dudemcrude said:
Shang can return fire on GPs with three fireballs (damage is roughly equal; timed correctly, the last skull WILL hit Jax) and force Jax to bring the fight to him. From there, Shang DESTROYS Jax with jabs; he's the easiest character to lock down with jabs. He will try to avoid this by doing 10 million crossovers, but unless the opposing player's timing is much better than yours (i.e. how I always lose the Shang/Jax match), you will get him.
Actually, my friend, GP vs fireballs is a losing proposition for shang. When timed right, the third fireball is easily blockable. The GP is an unblockable ground based move whereas the fireballs will only do damage if Jax is standing. You can easily duck all day without taking damage, only doing GPs here and there. Let alone MGP. This forces shang to come to jax. Not the other way around.
 
D

david_GEM

Guest
Lao- scorpion- people just wanna counter.

Scorpion- a good kang- close combat is unrealistic. and a good jax

rep- sub, mileena, kitana, shang. Mileena is too fast for him, he can be frozen on purpose in the middle of a move. A spamming shang is gonna require timing and luck.

johnny cage- mileena- maybe raiden

raiden- scorpion- to counter, mileena for a number of reasons.
 
dvdcsn said:
Actually, my friend, GP vs fireballs is a losing proposition for shang. When timed right, the third fireball is easily blockable. The GP is an unblockable ground based move whereas the fireballs will only do damage if Jax is standing. You can easily duck all day without taking damage, only doing GPs here and there. Let alone MGP. This forces shang to come to jax. Not the other way around.
Against people like you or Wario, definitely. Against the typical online Jax spammer, this strategy works fairly well (that is, the third fireball hits them on a recovery frame). Not that your point is any less valid or anything, but I figure for the purposes of this thread (and certainly of my sentence), we are dealing with the typical counterpicking spammers. Otherwise, I could never give Kitana an advantage over Jax, either. Obviously my Shang wouldn't do very well against your Jax.
 
ScheissNussen said:
Liu / Jax / Mil can counter anyone, even themselves. I was trying to give examples without them.
Fair enough. You might have me on some of this, too.

ScheissNussen said:
Lao:You can't mess with Kits close play, it is some of the most damaging in the game for any character, her sweeps keep Lao at bay and bait him into quick dive kicks for at least 50% damage every time. Her fan is a giant sprite against Laos large sprite which is even bigger during attacks. Forward jks help kit in close as well. Doing a swp with Kit against Lao (or pretty much anyone that isnt jumping) is just dumb. She can avoid spins with her fan fairly easy.
You definitely have a point on some of this. Up close, though, low toe nullifies jabs, fan swipes, fan waves, and most sweeps. It only takes a couple of low toes to frustrate the average online Kitana into making a mistake (i.e. crossover attempt), so toe, toe, tornado is often good form to counter her aggressive tactics.

ScheissNussen said:
-Scorpion also gives enormous damage for every mistake and his quick projectile can beat Laos hat throw on reaction and null his teleport. Lao would have to be the aggressor to avoid tp's during hat throws, which means baiting even more blocked dive kicks which can potentially be death punch into spear, uc.
This is all correct. I still think Lao can do a good job of turtling against the typical online Scorpions (Type A - back up all day waiting for aa combos; Type B - hop around like a fairy the whole match looking for air throws, crossovers, and tp confusion).

ScheissNussen said:
Shang: if someone is shang, all he has is fireballs, and ice vs 1 fb and 1-2 fb chip != subs freeze. He simply cant get close with ninja aarh. It certainly is a shitfest for sub if he does, but he also has ground ice to counter shangs slow startup fbs.
-There are tons of mixups with ground ice and ice but the sub player has to be smart and willing to trade hits.
Shang shouldn't bother trading projectiles with a turtling Sub-Zero (nor should anyone other than Liu Kang). If Subbie backs up, so should Shang. Shang has morphs and Subbie usually gets bored first. Eventually the match will end up close; Subbies usually attempt to run away, and it's often predicatble when they're about to; three fireball juggles win. If the Subbie plays aggressive, he can do a much better job of confusing Shang and forcing mistakes, but he also leaves himself open to up close combat.

ScheissNussen said:
I do agree with the raiden vs shang though, it is dependent on the play styles of each player.
Shang will have to be the one playing corner fb master, but it is hard to get him to the point where he has the advantage before raiden does.
And Raiden can be one of the biggest turtles in the game against a slow shang with slow projectiles. Forward jumping shang = teleporting Raiden. 2-3 x fb shang = teleport, shocker 50%
Under the right circumstances, this matchup can be a bitch for the Shang player. Most of those circumstances involve facing guys of a much superior skill level, though.
 
for counterpicker people i just use teleport shit, thoes guys have too be attacked agresively , dont let them breathe in close combat and they are done hah
 
I need help with mileena spammers.. counterpicking using raiden even liu is not working for me. Jax, its very close but I always lose. I hate mileena abusers.. I haven't seen anyone yet use mileena right- they take advantage of sais spamming and turtling.. and I thought jax was the one people hate. If more people use mileena its going to get tough for me. :'(
 

MKB

Forum General Emeritus
jesse89202 said:
I need help with mileena spammers.. counterpicking using raiden even liu is not working for me. Jax, its very close but I always lose. I hate mileena abusers.. I haven't seen anyone yet use mileena right- they take advantage of sais spamming and turtling.. and I thought jax was the one people hate. If more people use mileena its going to get tough for me. :'(
Three ways to go about it.

  • Spam right back with Mileena
  • Low fireball spam with Liu
  • Teleport behind with Raiden and shock grab combo her ass
 
dciguy01 said:
Three ways to go about it.

  • Spam right back with Mileena
  • Low fireball spam with Liu
  • Teleport behind with Raiden and shock grab combo her ass
I tried that and none of them works. Its probably just me getting anxious because it gets annoying, just freaking fight man. Fights like kensidj I'll take any day but please stop that mileena shit.

1. I spam right back and they avoid it. Seems to me that their timing is more precise than mine. When I spam usually that player would just get me sai spamming and they will teleport kick me. I do that to them and they manage to block mainly because they turtle.
2. Low fireball with liu is what I do , even air fireballs. But they follow it with a teleport kick or roll after block.
3. Raiden... every time I try to grab her ass she low toe-kicks me and then sweeps or jumps back (sometimes by rolling) following a combo. I don't know teleport isn't really doing it for me.
 

X820

Noob
jesse89202 said:
I tried that and none of them works. Its probably just me getting anxious because it gets annoying, just freaking fight man. Fights like kensidj I'll take any day but please stop that mileena shit.

1. I spam right back and they avoid it. Seems to me that their timing is more precise than mine. When I spam usually that player would just get me sai spamming and they will teleport kick me. I do that to them and they manage to block mainly because they turtle.
2. Low fireball with liu is what I do , even air fireballs. But they follow it with a teleport kick or roll after block.
3. Raiden... every time I try to grab her ass she low toe-kicks me and then sweeps or jumps back (sometimes by rolling) following a combo. I don't know teleport isn't really doing it for me.
It seems that you know what goes wrong, try taking it a step further and anticipate their next move, then rape.