Combo Fallout rewarding getting hit?

[Eddy Wang]

When they break away they lose wakeup options and on top of that they defense meter takes time to fill up again.
I think this was one of the great changes on the breaker system.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

If you know they're gonna break they hit the ground with no meter and no way to wake up. You're giving up initial damage for pressure. Pressure that they have no escape from because they have no meter and no armor.

That's a lot of damage to leave on the table once they've become privy to my being aware of the fact that they have 2 bars. They'll know that their opponent has to respect the fact that they have 2 bars, and use that to their advantage. Just let the opponent stop their combo short and keep both bars. It's just going to devolve into a guessing game.

 

[xenogorgeous]

yep .... no drama yet .... wait for the stress test, the online beta, and the game to come out, and check out by yourself, if this will be a serious issue or not .... since it's a new defensive gameplay mechanic tied to a timed-filling up bar, it's not something players can rely one after another to abuse in the game

 

[Cobainevermind87]

You could do a fully grounded string into amplified spear into fully grounded string into teleport. Thats a fully grounded combo leaving them standing for 1 bar and zero chance to break. For 2 bars you could do a grounded string into spear into string into mb teleport d2 and if they try to break they will eat the unscaled d2 which will do more damage and then have to eat a mix up or pressure after because d2 will recover first and they wont be able to wake up. Theres 1 solution and no one even has the game yet so maybe once it comes out i suggest you hit the lab and find out more

Good stuff dude, I'll keep that in mind. And I definitely will no doubt. I still think it's going to be pretty wonky for characters whose combos revolve around juggles though, like Sonya and Skarlet. Lots of guessing on both sides when the person being juggled has two bars. It reminds me of Sektor's ex chest bump in a way. You had to respect the fact that they had a bar to make their teleport safe, which at times let them get away with keeping their bar and their naked teleport going unpunished.

I just don't want to see people stopping their combos short in fear of their opponent dropping out and punishing. That shouldn't be a thing in my opinion.

 

[trufenix]

How could sacrificing your entire defensive meter and getting nothing guaranteed be a "reward" for getting hit?

Is using delayed wake up to interupt okizemi / vortexes also being rewarded for getting hit?

 

[Eji1700]

A quick reminder that this is MK. Remember breakers in MK9 and MKX? A defender always had a guaranteed way out of combos if they had meter.

In MK11 it seems meter is more available but it's harder to break compared to MK9 and MKX.

I'd just wait and see how it plays out.

In MK9 and MKX its not a problem because the defender doesn't get a full counter hit combo punish(in a game with Krushing Blows no less) when they use breaker. It resets to "mostly" neutral AND they had to rework the mechanic in some cases because it was actually beneficial for the defender.

In Injustice it's fine because it doesn't often lead to a full combo punish on escape and you're risking them getting a proper read like in GG where they then get to really blow you up.

In KI it's ok because fucking up the break locks you out of further attempts and risks getting counter broken for 50%+

Most of the arguments here center around "well if you read it".

Well great, so glad I read everything else to get in and land that hit, just so I can read some more to maybe get the damage. Oh and if I read it right and they escape I can read AGAIN to try and punish them from the ground. Sure they have no defensive meter but seems like a lousy deal for the aggressor.

Oh and my opponent? They don't have to read shit. Just fallout of the combo randomly every now and then and god forbid they threw a spear because now you get a full combo punish, and in the meantime everytime you don't fallout and they think you will, hey free less damage.

The last game I can even think of that let you do something like that was TvC, and it was a huge issue. Now i'm not saying that maybe there's combo routes or something that are "fallout" safe, but again, it's not like it was Tyler playing. Both players know what they're doing in this video, and it's NOT the only example of this happening. Far from it.

How could sacrificing your entire defensive meter and getting nothing guaranteed be a "reward" for getting hit?

Is using delayed wake up to interupt okizemi / vortexes also being rewarded for getting hit?

You can literally see in the timestamps I posted that the reward for getting hit was a full combo punish because their opponent committed to a combo extender that's punishable as hell, so yes, it's guaranteed.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

How could sacrificing your entire defensive meter and getting nothing guaranteed be a "reward" for getting hit?

Is using delayed wake up to interupt okizemi / vortexes also being rewarded for getting hit?

We're talking about using defensive meter to drop out of a combo which at times grants a full punish because the opponent is stuck in recovery.

 

[Braindead]

AND they had to rework the mechanic in some cases because it was actually beneficial for the defender.

They will do the same again if needed. No need to worry about this this early.

 

[trufenix]

We're talking about using defensive meter to drop out of a combo which at times grants a full punish because the opponent is stuck in recovery.

It's still a read, it's not free, nothing is rewarded.

All they've done is add watch the opponents meter during juggles to the meta.

 

[trufenix]

You can literally see in the timestamps I posted that the reward for getting hit was a full combo punish because their opponent committed to a combo extender that's punishable as hell, so yes, it's guaranteed.

It's NOT guaranteed. In the very same match, the very same player READ the breakaway and made the defender waste his ENTIRE METER FOR NOTHING.

What you are describing is called strategizing and adapting to your opponent, not a reward.

 

[SaltShaker]

While I'm usually always the one saying "it's too early to judge things, let's wait for the game to release"

I'll admit I dont really like the how breakaway works right now. In Injustice2 when somebody tries to air escape, there was a risk/reward for both players. You have the chance of slipping out of a combo, but if somebody reads that they could just walk forward and punish the air escape with a combo. This is possible because after you use air tech you land on your feet.

With breakaway you do not land on your feet, you go straight from getting combo'd to spiraling out of the combo to the ground. So even if your opponent reads that you're going to breakaway, the most they are going to get is free pressure while you're standing up off the ground. They're not getting a full combo like they would if they read air escape from Injustice 2.

Basically the risk/reward for breakaway in MK11 right now is in the favor of the player using it aka the person getting combo'd

@Wetdoba mentioned this in the thread, but it's what I thought while watching the Kast live. I'm not so sure it will be as free as speculated.

For example, if your opponent has the two bars and you're thinking "yea I know he's gonna break like he did first chance he got last time", you can combo into the juggle, and then dash up uppercut on the read. They'll eat the 14% through armor, and then hold your pressure since they can't do a WU attack. This will be about equal to what you would have gotten from the original combo, plus an offensive turn while he sits on no defensive meter. Would be even stronger making a correct read with a pressure character. The opponent might get hesitant to escape after eating a couple of those, and could turn into a "who will do what" mind game not too dissimilar from Inj2 escapes.

I wish they would have shown something like that during the match, but it may turn out a pretty good addition.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Seems like a super trash mechanic rn, getting knocked down with no wake-up is not as big a deal in a game where 50/50s have been heavily toned down and the cooldown can be as fast as 15 seconds at times.

The attacker gets a hit and their reward is that they can be full-combo punished during the combo but the defender can't. Definitely hate the mechanic, I hope they significantly increase the cooldown or change the invincibility to armour so that it can be broken and the juggle can continue with fast enough attacks

 

[Wigy]

A quick reminder that this is MK. Remember breakers in MK9 and MKX? A defender always had a guaranteed way out of combos if they had meter.

In MK11 it seems meter is more available but it's harder to break compared to MK9 and MKX.

I'd just wait and see how it plays out.

Their option was tied to meter they had to build and didn't give the chance to punish

 

[Wetdoba]

@Wetdoba mentioned this in the thread, but it's what I thought while watching the Kast live. I'm not so sure it will be as free as speculated.

For example, if your opponent has the two bars and you're thinking "yea I know he's gonna break like he did first chance he got last time", you can combo into the juggle, and then dash up uppercut on the read. They'll eat the 14% through armor, and then hold your pressure since they can't do a WU attack. This will be about equal to what you would have gotten from the original combo, plus an offensive turn while he sits on no defensive meter. Would be even stronger making a correct read with a pressure character. The opponent might get hesitant to escape after eating a couple of those, and could turn into a "who will do what" mind game not too dissimilar from Inj2 escapes.

I wish they would have shown something like that during the match, but it may turn out a pretty good addition.

Not only that but you could even potentially get 2-3 quick mix ups in between sweep, short hop overhead, and throw before they get the meter to wake up again back. They have mentioned that when you use both bars at once it actually takes longer for the meter to come back than if you used them separately.

 

[Corruption100]

I think it will be stronger on certain characters than others. That same geras was trying that shit on sonya and would get caught/mixed as soon as he stood up. Idk if it was sonyas strings or the sonya player making good reads, but it does not seem super safe against characters with multiple launchers and 50/50s

 

[Corruption100]

We need to pay close attention to how long the defensive bars take to recover when doing an escape. They may build very slowly.

I’d assume it’s like the offensive meter. NRS previously stated that the meter fill rate is dependent on the power of the move that used it. So a really powerful move will cause that meter to restore much slower than a quick low power move. The combo escape probably works similarly and will cause a slow recharge rate, due to how good it is.

Go time it. Last time I remember it takes 40-45ish seconds for both bars to come back post breakaway. My question is does it stay scaled that way until you get both bars back? Imagine dropping out then having to use that one bar for a wakeup and wait another long ass time again.