Video Blockstun comparison test video

[Braindead]

Yeah I understand the reason behind adding blockstun is to make punishing moves that could otherwise be somewhat difficult to punish, like @Barrogh said above a great example is Reptile's dash in MK9. And this is also one of the reasons its much easier to counterpoke in MKX than in MK9, pokes in MK9 had barely any blockstun even though the block disadvantage is comparable between MK9 and MKX.

However, it's still way too much block stun on some moves. I think if they changed it to around 10f or a bit less it would be perfect. 18f of blockstun fucks up your timing too easily.

 

[SaSSolino]

nice lao

 

[Scott The Scot]

There were good example in MK9: sub's slide was actually less minus than reptile's elbow, but it was punished a lot more often.

Huh? This is false, I'm sure.

Reptiles regular elbow dash was -15, whereas Sub Zero's slide was -35 unless done from max range in which case it became like -16 I think. Still more negative than reptiles.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I'm enjoying every point of view so far, agree or disagree.

 

[Eddy Wang]

nice lao

I gotta stay sharp there is a tournament next month, last time i was rusty as hell, this time it will be different, i have the entire full session i will post later this week, some sick combos and setups in there.

 

[Akromaniac27]

The issue seems to be a combination of block stun as well as pushback. For many characters that don't have fast, long reaching 6-10f normals, -8 to ~-12 moves practically become safe due to it. Even -14 becomes safe simply from the pushback for a lot of the cast.

I don't agree with reducing block stun, because this isn't the only game it exists in, and honestly, learning the timing isn't as extensive as its being painted out to be. It's not every move in the game, but a handful of them.

I do however feel that the pushback is dumb for numerous moves and it either should have less pushback, or more negative frames. It's constantly overlooked, but an example of moves that go under the radar with this are moves like Kano's d4 in cutthroat. Granted all d4s have pushback on block, but with the range he has, on top of safe armor and arguably the best backdash in the game, it shouldn't create a scenario where you practically have to respect anything after even when blocked. I'm pointing his out because there is like no blockstun on the move but yet no counter poke is guaranteed because it either won't reach, isn't fast enough to reach if you go for range, and/or aren't true mids or lows and can just get low profiled again.

 

[Akromaniac27]

Also, if you test frame data by using jumps, it's not going to be 100% accurate, and looking at your button inputs, you can just hold up instead of trying to hit it on the right frame.

The reason I mention this is because when my laptop WAS working (dumb shit won't take in USB ports anymore), I was checking frame data by breaking it down frame by frame. The only characters I touched upon were Mileena, Kitana, Sonya and Sub though. Just because it's an extensive process and because even when asked for the data, the other person still made up their own numbers, so whatever lol. The amount of frames it takes for a character to start a punish isn't really relevant because no move on block let's you move right away, and EVERYTHING varies; there is no set rule as to how much stun there is. The negative frames for MOST things in the game IS correct, it's just the pushback causing travel frames and/or variable blockstun because of the pushback where moves DO change in block frames. And the reason I'm mentioning all this is that you used Jax's punch as an example. Regardless of the move having less blockstun, it's still safe, much like a lot of moves in the game are. They may have pushback and/or extensive blockstun, but if they're safe to begin with, it still won't make a difference other than checking them.

And honestly, on the comment of risky characters being able to play riskier, that isn't really true because it's not like they NEED to even play risky, or even have a risky playstyle. Like Kitana for example; the girl really only has mid specials and they're pretty damn unsafe for being mids that don't launch, EXrising fans aside. I mean, I'm surprised there hasn't been a rally yet for all the meterless launching 50/50s that are safe in this game, but I guess that's just me. Let alone any nerf "suggestions" to normalize them.

 

[Colest]

Still think the best way is to make some of those hard to punish moves more negative on block in order to balance out the risk, right now there are characters who barely touch them due ranges and so on, that is if they don't want to give us buffered normals out of blockstuns.

Perhaps. It's a little bit of slippery slope. Some people can get tight punishes and having small punish windows that make something an unreliable punish can be exciting for the game, despite the strain it can put on labbing for people. Where do the draw the line for ease of punishment? More importantly though it can make the frame data almost deceptive if you keep altering the block stun to be heavier and heavier which I think should not be the case. Frame data is already screwy enough for projectiles "recovery" and for heavy moves like Kotal's sword specials. Truth to be told I'd take the jab option select in stride with the ability to buffer normals over the current scenario and I loathe option selects and their effect on games; however, that's NRS' decision, not mine.

At the risk of sounding condescending, I think what a lot of people look at regarding this game and see it as traits of it being "uncompetitive" or not very well designed are misunderstandings. Most any fighting game is not meant to be super tight with the ability for it to be played "perfectly." The current batch of popular fighting games definitely fit that category. An element of unpredictability should not be overlooked in these games. Having every matchup boil down to the matchup numbers and that's it, assuming the players are of comparable skill, is incredibly boring and will create a game that lacks staying power. This applies to a lot of discussions outside of this thread as well.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Also, if you test frame data by using jumps, it's not going to be 100% accurate, and looking at your button inputs, you can just hold up instead of trying to hit it on the right frame.

The reason I mention this is because when my laptop WAS working (dumb shit won't take in USB ports anymore), I was checking frame data by breaking it down frame by frame. The only characters I touched upon were Mileena, Kitana, Sonya and Sub though. Just because it's an extensive process and because even when asked for the data, the other person still made up their own numbers, so whatever lol. The amount of frames it takes for a character to start a punish isn't really relevant because no move on block let's you move right away, and EVERYTHING varies; there is no set rule as to how much stun there is. The negative frames for MOST things in the game IS correct, it's just the pushback causing travel frames and/or variable blockstun because of the pushback where moves DO change in block frames. And the reason I'm mentioning all this is that you used Jax's punch as an example. Regardless of the move having less blockstun, it's still safe, much like a lot of moves in the game are. They may have pushback and/or extensive blockstun, but if they're safe to begin with, it still won't make a difference other than checking them.

And honestly, on the comment of risky characters being able to play riskier, that isn't really true because it's not like they NEED to even play risky, or even have a risky playstyle. Like Kitana for example; the girl really only has mid specials and they're pretty damn unsafe for being mids that don't launch, EXrising fans aside. I mean, I'm surprised there hasn't been a rally yet for all the meterless launching 50/50s that are safe in this game, but I guess that's just me. Let alone any nerf "suggestions" to normalize them.

the only timed jump is the call back to time the hat with the blockstun, everything else i held up the instant i blocked something

 

[iMileena]

I didn't know you had a thick accent like that lol but anywho I'm glad someone else feels the way I do about this topic. In my opinion they should make moves with a lot of push block with plus frames only not negative it makes it very unfair in my opinion

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Learn the punish timing maybe? Huge blockstuns are annoying but they are not unintended features
Frame data works this way:
When a move is blocked it stuns the attacker for 20 frames and defender for 18 frames. Its not just -2. its -20 for attacker and -18 for defender. Thats why huge block stuns exist. Some of the unsafe moves deal too much blockstun and 'attacker' block stun that they seems like they are safe. Its not a bug or unintended feature that needs fixing. Its just how devs decided to make some moves


If you are going to bash mkx atleast do it when you are actually right. If you think you are right then can you explain how not-competitive 'timing your move' is

Dude,during online play... lets say ESL when there are lags + this shit kicks in there is nothing about my timing. I know it exists here and there but when you do measurement some moves might be nearly impossible to punish. So if NRS thought about supporting the netcode for competitive play this should be looked at as well, because its just bad. If You dont see a problem here then I think all I could talk to You about is Ice cream or karaoke perhaps...Have good day!

 

[Nedyrc]

Dude,during online play... lets say ESL when there are lags + this shit kicks in there is nothing about my timing. I know it exists here and there but when you do measurement some moves might be nearly impossible to punish. So if NRS thought about supporting the netcode for competitive play this should be looked at as well, because its just bad. If You dont see a problem here then I think all I could talk to You about is Ice cream or karaoke perhaps...Have good day!

Fighting games are not for playing online. Lag will exist. Even if they solve the 'problem' by making less block stun you'd probaby miss it and blame connection anyway. Btw i can punish hard to punish moves most of the time even online. Maybe thats why i dont see the problem. So what do you think about ice cream and karaoke?

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Its a point of view. You have your right to have your own. I've played SF3 online and I dont recall to have such problems. Now I love Pistachios Icecream and love doin' Classic rock karaoke, how about You ?

 

[RVB]

Fighting games are not for playing online.

I love it when I see nonsense like this being said like it's written in stone or something...
News flash mate, not everyone out there has access to a local scene and I'm willing to bet that you don't have any clue how hard it is to start a scene in certain countries, that just leaves Online for those people that wanna play and enjoy fighting games.

 

[Barrogh]

Huh? This is false, I'm sure.

Reptiles regular elbow dash was -15, whereas Sub Zero's slide was -35 unless done from max range in which case it became like -16 I think. Still more negative than reptiles.

For some reason I was sure that Sub's slide was -14 in edge situations. Regardless, all those failed punishes where my b312 became 2 (due to massive blockstun "eating" my b31) leading to launcher timing being derped and my brain farting as a result

Which was the point, regardless.

...Actually, you may be right. My train of thoughts could be "just 1 frame, and one world of a difference". So it's not necessarily was plus one frame

I love it when I see nonsense like this being said like it's written in stone or something...
News flash mate, not everyone out there has access to a local scene and I'm willing to bet that you don't have any clue how hard it is to start a scene in certain countries, that just leaves Online for those people that wanna play and enjoy fighting games.

Plus, it's not 1990ths anymore. We have more decent network infrastructure in many places around the world and netcodes these days.

 

[Nedyrc]

I love it when I see nonsense like this being said like it's written in stone or something...
News flash mate, not everyone out there has access to a local scene and I'm willing to bet that you don't have any clue how hard it is to start a scene in certain countries, that just leaves Online for those people that wanna play and enjoy fighting games.

I said that not because its written in stone, but its because lag is bad for fighting games. And online literally means ping/delay which is bad for a game that calculates on frames which are 60/1 of a sec. Whatever you do you cannot have 0 lag online unless whole world gets fiber cables or sth. Its not written in stone its written on lag. Btw i dont have a offline scene here too. But if they make a fg for online and balance it FOR online that game wont be as competiteve as it would

 

[Nedyrc]

Okay i see how it is. Can anyone explain to me Why you think fighting games are fit online? How can you balance a fighting game that is made for online? Have you ever played a fg online? People are shit at the game and its because they are used to abuse online delay thus slamming their head against the controller whenever they get chance. Oh yeah lets remove huge blockstuns. why? "because i cant punish it smh" Oh yeah lets buff cancels and make them easier because i cant cancel fast enough thx to delay. And lets slow time when opponant tries to 50/50 because i cant fuzzy guard when i play online. Oh yes and lets nerf jump ins because i cant anti air thx to online. Do you think this would work? do you think fighting games are fit playing online? NO. I dont understand people. I find funny when something SO obvious cannot be understood by a human being.

I love it when I see nonsense like this being said like it's written in stone or something...

SMH ITS A FACT(until we get godlike cables and godlike netcodes)

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

An easy fix would be to remove the requirement for button discipline, as in strings could be mashed out even if you wouldn't input them correctly, so long as the input for a string would come out in the timeframe set, then extra or incorrect inputs here and there wouldn't make the string stop or disable special cancels. When I still played MK X I found a "system" or a timing where I could punish almost everything properly as CT Kano with either 1,1,2 xx special or f2,1,2 and I am pretty sure I mashed out 1 and f2 once or twice too many times, however in online conditions I would occasionally fuck it up. Punishing with specials is easy though in no matter what conditions, all you gotta do is mash the input for the special repeatedly until you actually see it come out lol.

 

[Barrogh]

Okay i see how it is. Can anyone explain to me Why you think fighting games are fit online? How can you balance a fighting game that is made for online? Have you ever played a fg online? People are shit at the game and its because they are used to abuse online delay thus slamming their head against the controller whenever they get chance. Oh yeah lets remove huge blockstuns. why? "because i cant punish it smh" Oh yeah lets buff cancels and make them easier because i cant cancel fast enough thx to delay. And lets slow time when opponant tries to 50/50 because i cant fuzzy guard when i play online. Oh yes and lets nerf jump ins because i cant anti air thx to online. Do you think this would work? do you think fighting games are fit playing online? NO. I dont understand people. I find funny when something SO obvious cannot be understood by a human being.

SMH ITS A FACT(until we get godlike cables and godlike netcodes)

Dude, you realize that even before rollback netcodes were a thing an adequate online delay (provided you aren't trying to connect australians with brits or Poland with Japan) was already less than visual output delay on some (not outrageously bad) setups? As in, ~3 frames vs ~4 frames.

To answer your "question", you don't balance the game around additional online delay, but we can already play online with minimal impact on performance. That's pretty much "fit" in my book.

 

[RVB]

Okay i see how it is. Can anyone explain to me Why you think fighting games are fit online? How can you balance a fighting game that is made for online? Have you ever played a fg online? People are shit at the game and its because they are used to abuse online delay thus slamming their head against the controller whenever they get chance. Oh yeah lets remove huge blockstuns. why? "because i cant punish it smh" Oh yeah lets buff cancels and make them easier because i cant cancel fast enough thx to delay. And lets slow time when opponant tries to 50/50 because i cant fuzzy guard when i play online. Oh yes and lets nerf jump ins because i cant anti air thx to online. Do you think this would work? do you think fighting games are fit playing online? NO. I dont understand people. I find funny when something SO obvious cannot be understood by a human being.



SMH ITS A FACT(until we get godlike cables and godlike netcodes)

Nobody is asking to balance MKX around online mode, what people want is to be able to punish very negative moves on block without huge blockstun AND netcode delay getting in the way.
Lessening the block stun would not affect this game one damn bit from the competitive aspect and it sure as hell doesn't compare to making cancels easier... again something that nobody asked for.
As for antiairs getting buffed, me and the REST OF TYM apart from YOU apparently, are in agreement that it is something that MKX needs.

Finally about that "if I ever played a fighting game online?", NO I spend my days playing Tetris while eating coconuts on a deserted island.

 

[Barrogh]

what people want is to be able to punish very negative moves on block without huge blockstun AND netcode delay getting in the way.

Tbh long blockstuns are easier to adapt to when your goal is to punish.

As for antiairs getting buffed, me and the REST OF TYM apart from YOU apparently, are in agreement that it is something that MKX needs.

Actually, I'd say that at this point it's more about particular characters being free to jump-ins and/or crossups rather than general problem of MKX. Granted, those "particular characters" can be quite numerous...

 

[Eddy Wang]

Tbh long blockstuns are easier to adapt to when your goal is to punish.


Actually, I'd say that at this point it's more about particular characters being free to jump-ins and/or crossups rather than general problem of MKX. Granted, those "particular characters" can be quite numerous...

the blockstun gets in the way when some of those moves have thigh window to punish, like johnny cage's ex nut punch.