Black Canary - Combo Ender Options Off of MB Soaring Knee (BF2)

[Pleasa]

Saw in @x TeeJay o's combo thread the following for her midscreen and corner combo 1 bar no traits

Midscreen 1 Bar No Trait:

**Damage**
Starter xx Ex Bf2 Ji2, 2u3, 112 xx bf2
Starter xx Ex Bf2,Ji2,2u3,33 xx Bf2


**Setup**
Starter xx Ex Bf2,Ji2,112 1+3
Starter xx Ex Bf2,Ji2,2U3, 33 xx DF3

**Setup**
Starter Ex Bf2,2u3,2u3,33 xx DF3

Corner 1 Bar No Trait

**Damage**
Starter xx Ex Bf2,Ji2,2u3,2u3,112 xx Bf2

**Setup**
Starter Ex Bf2,2u3,2u3,33 xx DF3 Or 112 1+3 Ender

Curious as to how the BC community felt on the ease of use / damage output / viability of EX BF2, JI2, 2U3's vs EX BF2, JI3, 112 1+3? (Assuming 1 bar no lv 3 trait)

Or for that matter what other options have been found and/or used and why?

------------------

Edit (August 2017 Patch):
Based on feedback from this thread, these seem to be the best options off of EX BF2 for Canary assuming you are only using one bar for the EX itself (with damage, frame data and videos provided for your convenience below):

Damage:
1) EX BF2, JI3,112 1+3: 291.20 (112 1+3 Hit Adv +25)
2) EX BF2, JI3, D2 DF3D3: 250.11 (DF3D3 Hit Adv +25)
3) EX BF2, JI3, D3: 227.50 (D3 Hit Adv +30)

1) EX BF2, JI3, 112 1+3: 291.20 (112 1+3 Hit Adv +25)

2) EX BF2, JI3, D2 DF3D3: 250.11 (DF3D3 Hit Adv +25)

3) EX BF2, JI3, D3: 227.50 (D3 Hit Adv +30)

 

[Red Reaper]

EX BF2, F3, 112 2+3:

Did you mean J3 instead of F3?

 

[Pleasa]

Did you mean J3 instead of F3?

Meant more so holding forward in the air so you can roll to the other side of the opponent (as opposed to not moving and her dropping right in front of the opponent) and hitting the 3 before you touch the ground..

So maybe (Air)F3 would be a more proper abbreviation..

**Edited in the OP...

 

[Madog32]

No shade - can I ask why you end in BF2 for so many combos you notated? Just for corner carry?

EDIT: Never mind. I see it was not even you who posted it, and they say **DAMAGE** above them. That clears things up. I always go for setups instead, so I wasn't sure what you were going for here

I would add that the same combo into D2~DF3D3 is almost equally as damaging while covering even more matchups/wakeup options (I did not come up with this, but use it to great success). But 1121+3 is also a great tool. However, if your opener doesn't include a scream, I typically go for the J2 rather than FJ3 to keep them standing so you could finish with 21~scream cartwheel 2U, and wait for the reset to mix again (or F13~CD... the possibilities are limitless!)

 

[Red Reaper]

Meant more so holding forward in the air so you can roll to the other side of the opponent (as opposed to not moving and her dropping right in front of the opponent) and hitting the 3 before you touch the ground..

So maybe (Air)F3 would be a more proper abbreviation..

**Edited in the OP...

jf3 or JF3 is what I usually see.

 

[Pleasa]

No shade - can I ask why you end in BF2 for so many combos you notated? Just for corner carry?

EDIT: Nevermind. I see it was not even you who posted it, and they say **DAMAGE** above them. That clears things up. I always go for setups instead, so I wasn't sure what you were going for here

Yes lol, those enders were posted by @x TeeJay o during the first week of release prior to other options like 112 1+3, 33, DF3 etc really being fleshed out... At the time he was doing it for corner carry and damage output I believe...

My specific question was more so related to the options between the EX BF2 and whichever ender one prefers...

jf3 or JF3 is what I usually see.

To clarify, the EX BF2 ends with Canary in mid air with multiple options to chose from as you drop down on the opponent... Hold back and Canary rolls away from opponent, hold forward and Canary rolls over the opponent, no movement and Canary drops right in front of opponent.

To my knowledge JF3 usually means from a standing position your jumping foward then pressing 3...

 

[Red Reaper]

To clarify, the EX BF3 ends with Canary in mid air with multiple options as you drop down on the opponent... To my knowledge JF3 usually means from a standing position your jumping foward then pressing 3...

Yeah... It's technically not a jump forward, but it's the same with something like Supergirl doing her air stance in kombos... We still usually write J2 after that stance, even if she never actually jumped. IDK. It's just konvention I guess.

 

[Pleasa]

Yeah... It's technically not a jump forward, but it's the same with something like Supergirl doing her air stance in kombos... We still usually write J2 after that stance, even if she never actually jumped. IDK. It's just konvention I guess.

Understood.. Thanks for the clarification! was not sure of how to properly label those specific inputs.. But will change the OP accordingly!

**Edited in OP

 

[Madog32]

Yes lol, those enders were posted by @x TeeJay o during the first week of release prior to other options like 112 2+3, 33, DF3 etc really being fleshed out... At the time he was doing it for corner carry and damage output I believe...

My specific question was more so related to the options between the EX BF3 and whichever ender one prefers...



To clarify, the EX BF3 ends with Canary in mid air with multiple options to chose from as you drop down on the opponent... Hold back and Canary rolls away from opponent, hold forward and Canary rolls over the opponent, no movement and Canary drops right in front of opponent.

To my knowledge JF3 usually means from a standing position your jumping foward then pressing 3...

gotcha!

I included some of my thoughts about BF2MB in my post. J2 is great for level 2 scream vortex, while J3 is great for the meterless D2~DF3D3 finisher setup. I wasn't able to find much that you could squeeze between the BF2MB and the finisher. Especially if going for the DF3D3 ender. BF2MB FJ3 11 1121+3 was as optimal as I could get using the 1121+3 ender

 

[Pleasa]

No shade - can I ask why you end in BF2 for so many combos you notated? Just for corner carry?

EDIT: Never mind. I see it was not even you who posted it, and they say **DAMAGE** above them. That clears things up. I always go for setups instead, so I wasn't sure what you were going for here

I would add that the same combo into D2~DF3D3 is almost equally as damaging while covering even more matchups/wakeup options (I did not come up with this, but use it to great success). But 1121+3 is also a great tool. However, if your opener doesn't include a scream, I typically go for the J2 rather than FJ3 to keep them standing so you could finish with 21~scream cartwheel 2U, and wait for the reset to mix again (or F13~CD... the possibilities are limitless!)

gotcha!

I included some of my thoughts about BF2MB in my post. J2 is great for level 2 scream vortex, while J3 is great for the meterless D2~DF3D3 finisher setup. I wasn't able to find much that you could squeeze between the BF2MB and the finisher. Especially if going for the DF3D3 ender. BF2MB FJ3 11 1121+3 was as optimal as I could get using the 1121+3 ender

My initial thought process on the combo I provided was with 1 bar and no trait (assuming you are using the bar on the EX BF2)...

Regarding when you say same combo, do you mean EX BF2, J3, D2, DF3, D3? In your case Is DF3 D3 a true string or can it be blocked on reaction?

 

[Madog32]

My initial thought process on the combo I provided was with 1 bar and no trait (assuming you are using the bar on the EX BF2)...

Regarding when you say same combo, do you mean EX BF2, J3, D2, DF3, D3? In your case Is DF3 D3 a true string or can it be blocked on reaction?

I mean DF3D3. If you hold down 3 right after inputting the cartwheel, she will do the double sweep variation of the move. This is a 2x hitting low for a hard knockdown and more advantage than 1121+3

Also - I think you'd have at least level 2 trait more often than you wouldn't. While I guess its good to know what your options are without using trait, it would be foolish to not utilize it to its maximum potential - which is to use it mid combo. Most of the time it will be back to lvl 1 before you're even finished hitting!

 

[Pleasa]

I mean DF3D3. If you hold down 3 right after inputting the cartwheel, she will do the double sweep variation of the move. This is a 2x hitting low for a hard knockdown and more advantage than 1121+3

Also - I think you'd have at least level 2 trait more often than you wouldn't. While I guess its good to know what your options are without using trait, it would be foolish to not utilize it to its maximum potential - which is to use it mid combo. Most of the time it will be back to lvl 1 before you're even finished hitting!

Ahh now I got you... Yes I hardly ever use the DF/BF3 U3, D3 options in her current form as I never found a reason for them (which will change atleast for the U3 version post patch)...

Unfortunately DF3D3 as an ender does not combo so the opponent could block low after the startup EXDF2....

In this case, I would still use JI3, 112 1+3 as an ender..

 

[Speculosity]

Depending on the opponent, my favorite thing to do after ex MBbf3 is j2-21-db3 close or far mixup. It just looks so sexy.

It's a great reset that can catch people off-guard. But with training, it's reactable whether or not she's gonna go crossup or non cross up.

 

[Pleasa]

Depending on the opponent, my favorite thing to do after ex MBbf3 is j2-21-db3 close or far mixup. It just looks so sexy.

It's a great reset that can catch people off-guard. But with training, it's reactable whether or not she's gonna go crossup or non cross up.

EX BF2, J2, 21, DB3 is not a true string either so unfortunately the DB3 can be blocked...

However, the following three seem to be the only true strings for cartwheel enders as they connect without a problem.... but it seems to push the opponent too far from you to be considered a better option than 112 1+3

EX BF3, J2, 21, DF3
EX BF3, J2, 11, DF3 (first 1 whiffs)
EX BF3, J2, 112, DF3 (first 1 whiffs)

 

[Speculosity]

Oh, I meant db2 lol.

 

[Madog32]

Ahh now I got you... Yes I hardly ever use the DF/BF3 U3, D3 options in her current form as I never found a reason for them (which will change atleast for the U3 version post patch)...

Unfortunately DF3D3 as an ender does not combo so the opponent could block low after the startup EXDF2....

In this case, I would still use JI3, 112 2+3 as an ender..

Opener ~ bf2mb fj3 d2~df3d3 does combo

 

[Pleasa]

Opener ~ bf2mb fj3 d2~df3d3 does combo

I must be doing something wrong with the execution then cause I am not getting the DF3D3 to connect after the D2 cartwheel...

 

[Tiger Wong]

This is what it looks like.....

 

[Rip Torn]

Why are people so bad with notations in this thread?

Just in the last few posts I see bf3 when it's probably bf2. I also see db3 when it should be db2. Also, it's 112~1+3 not 2+3.

 

[Pleasa]

Why are people so bad with notations in this thread?

Just in the last few posts I see bf3 when it's probably bf2. I also see db3 when it should be db2. Also, it's 112~1+3 not 2+3.

Thanks for the heads up @Rip Torn ... I've since fixed the incorrect notations in my previous posts. They should be good now...

I mean DF3D3. If you hold down 3 right after inputting the cartwheel, she will do the double sweep variation of the move. This is a 2x hitting low for a hard knockdown and more advantage than 1121+3

Opener ~ bf2mb fj3 d2~df3d3 does combo

@Madog32 I've been playing around with the combo you listed (EX BF2, JI3, D2, DF3D3) but for me personally it is not consistent enough to use during matches when compared to using the following: (EX BF2, JI3, D3)

Also, DF3D3 and 112 1+3 both have the same Hit Adv, although the 112 1+3 ender does significantly more damage.

Going back to low enders, D3 has even more hit advantage than DF3D3 although it does not do as much damage.

D3: Hit Adv +30 (For reference: Start-Up +10)
DF3D3: Hit Adv +25 (For reference: Start-Up +27)
112 1+3: Hit Adv +25 (For reference: Start-Up +15)

Both low ender options still give the ability to for us cross up J2 afterwards since the hard knockdown is so close to the opponent... 112 1+3 puts the opponent farther away from you so cross up is riskier...

EX BF2, JI3, D3:

 

[Tiger Wong]

Alright look.... you wanna go with J3 D3 to end the combo? That's fine. To each their own. But here's what I'll say and be done with it.

- J3 D2~DF3d3 after BF2MB is pretty easy. You can do the cross-up J3 really high just as long as when you do the D2 the opponent is at BC's shoulders. It will connect everytime.
- as you said, in the combo, it's significantly more damage
- the start-up frames mean little when you're talking combos. All that matters is if you hit it.
- ending a combo with D3 vs D2~DF3d3 is also different as the frames are different for some reason. This is very apparent vs SG and her Rising Sun Strike wakeup. I don't know why, but it just is.

 

[Pleasa]

Alright look.... you wanna go with J3 D3 to end the combo? That's fine. To each their own. But here's what I'll say and be done with it.

- J3 D2~DF3d3 after BF2MB is pretty easy. You can do the cross-up J3 really high just as long as when you do the D2 the opponent is at BC's shoulders. It will connect everytime.
- as you said, in the combo, it's significantly more damage
- the start-up frames mean little when you're talking combos. All that matters is if you hit it.
- ending a combo with D3 vs D2~DF3d3 is also different as the frames are different for some reason. This is very apparent vs SG and her Rising Sun Strike wakeup. I don't know why, but it just is.

Thanks for the feedback @Tiger Wong! Much appreciated as I'm always down to learn from the community...

With that said, in your personal opinion, if you were trying to close out a match, would you end in 112 1+3 (for more damage) or would you still use D2, DF3D3 (for better okie options)?

Damage:
EX BF2, JI3, D3: 227.50 (D3 Hit Adv +30)
EX BF2, JI3, D2 DF3D3: 250.11 (DF3D3 Hit Adv +25)
EX BF2, JI3,112 1+3: 285.41 (112 1+3 Hit Adv +25)

Based on the feedback from this thread, D2 DF3D3 seems to be the most ideal during a match as it is a nice median between damage and okie potential since it allows for cross ups as well.

112 1+3 has the most optimal damage with slight less okie since opponent lands farther from you than with the D2 ~ DF3D3 or D3 options.

D3 can be an alternative low ender option.

(FYI, damage output info is based on the pre August 2017 patch frame data and as such is subject to change..)

 

[Tiger Wong]

Hey. Don't just use one ender all the time. For one thing, vs different characters it's more advantageous to end a juggle with 1121+3 and others (like SG) to end with DF3d3. Check the Canary tech thread.

And it's good to to give the opponent different wakeup looks. Especially if they're not used to fighting a Canary player.

Also, D3 is a really good normal on its own outside of combos.

 

[Pleasa]

With the August 2017 Patch Update, there is a slight change to the damage output for the 112 1+3 ender in my previous post as it now does more damage:

Damage:
EX BF2, JI3, D3: 227.50 (D3 Hit Adv +30)
EX BF2, JI3, D2 DF3D3: 250.11 (DF3D3 Hit Adv +25)
EX BF2, JI3,112 1+3: 291.20 (112 1+3 Hit Adv +25)