Question Aquaman in-game frame data corrections -- help update!

[Ben Reed]

This is all based on my own labwork, using both CPU reversal presets and manual testing vs. programmed dummy. If I am off on anything, PLEASE don't hesitate to correct me.

DF+1 / DF+1 MB:
Game says: -92 on block. That's...incredibly wrong, obviously.
My estimate: -8 on block, for both versions. Slowest reversals I've found that will punish (if Aquaman dashes ALL the way into the opponent's face) are Deathstroke's Sword Spin and Sword Flip (7f and 8f respectively). I tried reversal Aquaman DF+1 as a 9f punish and it didn't seem to work, so I think -8 is the upper limit on this move.

DF+1 startup:
Game says: 9 frames to start up.
My estimate: 15 frames to start up. Most disadvantageous move I could find to punish with this move was -15. No way this move's 9 frames, lol.

b+12:
Game says: -6 on block. This also appears to be wrong, but dramatically less so than DF+1.
My estimate: -5 on block? Not sure about this one because Superman super will punish, but Flash and Lex can't. I don't think there are any reversals that fall between those speed ranges (3f and 6f), so I guess I'd have to test versus frame traps. And I don't trust my basic math, lol, so I leave that to smarter people than myself.

b+2:
Game says: -10 on block. Doesn't seem quite right, because Trident Rush is 9f and it can't reversal punish.
My estimate: -8 on block. Deathstroke Sword Flip was the slowest reversal I could find that would punish it on block point-blank.

DB+1:
Game says: -22 on block.
My estimate: UPDATE: After the nerf to blockstun on Trident Scoop, this number now appears to be accurate. Reversal Aquaman DB2 (18f) will now punish where it wouldn't before.

d+2:
Game says: -17 on block. There may be some error with this, but not by much. 1 frame at most.
My estimate: Either -16 or -17 on block. Batman's 16f slide will reversal punish, but Aquaman and Wonder Woman's 17f projectiles won't. However, I consider this calculation pretty close to the truth simply because those 17f moves were both projectiles, and the (minimal) pushback from d+2 may have increased their travel time JUST enough that they wouldn't hit in time to punish (unless it hits on the very same frame it spawns). So a 17f non-projectile move may actually punish this move.

1123:
Game says: -41 on block. If true, why the hell would you ever use this move?
My estimate: +2 or so, lol. Definitely plus, at any rate. There is a big gap between the 2 and the 3 in this move, but the 3 inflicts MASSIVE blockstun. Setting the 2P Aquaman dummy to do this move and hold up, then blocking it and holding up myself as 1P Aquaman, the dummy was able to jump noticeably before I could.

Super startup:
Game says: 131 or however many frames to startup. This is almost certainly accurate, but not very useful because it reports the whole length of the flash as well.
GGA Dizzy reports: Super impacts in 19 frames.

 

[Trini_Bwoi]

Just by the way the frame data is setup, something that is -17 on block needs a move with 16 frames of startup to punish. So if the game says -6 for b12, Flash's uppercut wouldn't be able to punish it anyways. The game probably has b12, d2 and b2 right.

Also the startup of Trident Rush is no where near 9f, more like 14f.

 

[ForeverKing]

Just by the way the frame data is setup, something that is -17 on block needs a move with 16 frames of startup to punish. So if the game says -6 for b12, Flash's uppercut wouldn't be able to punish it anyways. The game probably has b12, d2 and b2 right.

Also the startup of Trident Rush is no where near 9f, more like 14f.

Nice sig lol

 

[Dizzy]

You might want to use the corner to negate pushback, if you haven't already.

I think the regular version of trident rush is -8 if you do not move at all while doing it and all the hits are blocked. That said, if you move forward during the trident rush, it makes it more minus. It seems to be -10 if you dash forward alot during the MB version. It can be punished by Aquamans 10f moves F2 and D3 if you corner him and move forward alot during a trident rush. (Note: GL lift cannot reversal punish this ever, I think GL startup on lift wrong though). I have no explanation as to why Aquamans B1 cannot punish this except maybe its travel time is really bad.

All -6 moves are unpunishable by 6f startup moves. Only explanation I can think of for this is the startup is not counting the first frame of impact. For example, flashes uppercut would be 7f impact and thus can only punish things -7. This would make things really annoying and confusing, so I hope this is not the case.

 

[Ben Reed]

Thanks for the observations, guys. Excellent point about the startup report, Dizzy, that would explain a LOT of my results. I'm too used to community-gathered frame data where they report startup as time TO the first active frame, rather than time to JUST BEFORE the first active frame.

I'll take a look back at some of this stuff later in the week if I get a chance, get some more accurate numbers in here. I'll definitely try and use more normal attack punishes as well; I'm still learning the non-big-punish frame data on characters that aren't Aquaman. My math is no great shakes, but apparently it's better than NetherRealm's (presumably) in-game frame advantage calculator. :-/

 

[Dizzy]

Ben Reed

From my testing, Aquamans super impacts in 19f.

 

[Ben Reed]

Ben Reed

From my testing, Aquamans super impacts in 19f.

Thanks Dizzy, nice find. Adding it to the first post.

 

[Reptile Orion]

Does Aquaman have any attacks that gives him an advantage over opponents? At times I feel like I'm constantly blocking trying to get pokes with D1.

 

[Aquamang]

Does Aquaman have any attacks that gives him an advantage over opponents? At times I feel like I'm constantly blocking trying to get pokes with D1.

I would study your opponents strings and see where you can poke F1 instead of D1. Obviously since you are not holding down or back you need to be careful, but if you are confident it is going to work go for it. If you are wrong you can always trait out.

Another way underutilized option to create frame advantage is Aquamans regular ole 3. It comes out in 12 Frames and creates a small advantage on Block. Obviously this is a more spacing based poke but it is a really nice way to check your opponents as they approach and put you at an advantage to begin your own approach.

 

[Reptile Orion]

I would study your opponents strings and see where you can poke F1 instead of D1. Obviously since you are not holding down or back you need to be careful, but if you are confident it is going to work go for it. If you are wrong you can always trait out.

Another way underutilized option to create frame advantage is Aquamans regular ole 3. It comes out in 12 Frames and creates a small advantage on Block. Obviously this is a more spacing based poke but it is a really nice way to check your opponents as they approach and put you at an advantage to begin your own approach.

Thanks for the advice. I'll begin incorporating some of these changes into my game later tonight when I log on.

 

[Ben Reed]

Updated with revisions to DF1 startup, DB1 block advantage, and 1123 block advantage. Will clean the OP up more a bit later. Doing several things at once right now.

 

[MK Peanuts]

The game says f1 is +3 on block, but I think it's neutral. I'm not sure, my testing method was not super scientific, but I was trying to test frame traps against another Aquaman. I set up the dummy to block for half a second then mash d1s. I would then make it block a f1 then do d1. My d1 would consistently trade with the dummy's d1.

 

[Ben Reed]

MK Peanuts

A more consistent way to test frame advantage rather than using d1 (which is VERY hard to start on the 1st possible frame 100% of the time without tool assistance) is to use neutral jump instead. I learned this trick trying to figure out frame data in KOF XIII (for which, for a long time, there WAS no frame data, even in Japanese, lol).

Do this instead: Program the dummy to do the move whose advantage you want to test, and HOLD UP, so that they immediately vertical jump the very 1st frame after they recover from the move. As 1P, you block their move and HOLD UP as well, so that both characters vertical jump on the very 1st frame they are able. Whichever character jumps first is at frame advantage.

I just tried it myself and I'm pretty sure f1 IS +3 on block. The dummy was able to jump noticeably before I was after I blocked his f1 and held up.