Rozalin1780
Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
If you're hoping for a single answer that negates HQT's Predator's zoning entirely, well... you're going to be disappointed. However, this thread will discuss some new options for Kitana versus Predator's zoning.
I've been researching Kitana's worst match-up against HQT Predator quite a bit recently. His zoning is a nightmare for a character with no teleport or low profiling special. Sure, you can simply armor through it, but spending bar just to get in isn't exactly in Kitana's favor. Moreover, armor can be baited, or even broken if Predator decides to spend meter himself.
So I asked myself a single question: how do you deal with his zoning if you have no meter? In a bit of an accident during play against Predator, I watched my Assassin Strike go right under Predator's forward Plasma Shot. Curious how it happened, I took to the lab to recreate the scenario. Sure enough, I discovered that Assassin Strike WILL go right under forward Plasma Shot IF you are mid-screen (a step further back from starting distance) or closer. Note, she must be "running" for it to go under.
But that's not all! I got to thinking about the discovery made about Mileena's Air Sai being able to be forward dashed after a blocked Telekick. Plasma Shot is the highest (vertically speaking) projectile in the game performed on the ground that hits opponents also on the ground. This is about the same height as Mileena's Air Sai when it hits opponents on the ground. I figured, why not try to forward dash under Plasma Shot?
Turns out that yes, you can forward dash under Predator's forward Plasma Shot on reaction IN OPEN SPACE REGARDLESS OF YOUR POSITION! What does this mean exactly? Well, I made a video below for demonstration.
Now mind you, my findings aren't a full-proof way of getting in every single time no matter what. It still requires a bit of a read, and a good amount of execution. Enjoy!
Further explanation of this tech:
Each follow-up after forward Plasma Shot assumes frame perfect execution in between. The punishes you see are legit. Delaying the shots a few frames has no baring on whether or not Predator's shot will stop you. In fact, delaying them too much works in Kitana's favor as she can get in before most shots come out. The only exception to this rule is a delayed Up Plasma Shot can catch a Throat Slice.
*THIS IS IMPORTANT!* Each punish is not technically full screen. It is a minor step forward, which I will further refer to as "the sweet spot". If you attempt from full screen, and the follow up is frame perfect behind the forward Plasma Shot, Predator can recover in time to block.
In the case of the Throat Slice punish, you must walk backwards a few frames after forward dashing to avoid being hit by Up Plasma Shot and close Ground Plasma Shot. The video demonstrates what happens if you Throat Slice too soon. By delaying your Throat Slice this way, you can beat any Plasma Shot follow-up EXCEPT a second forward Plasma Shot. It should be noted that in the case of close Ground Plasma Shot, your execution must be perfect to get the punish.
The Smart Disk: the secret to dealing with this lies in your ability to recognize the exact moment when the disk stops when it is first thrown. This is when you need to act. Where you are on screen determines what you can do. From full screen, you can neutral jump then duck a forward Plasma Shot. This is handy if you are low life and Predator is hoping to chip you to death. Unfortunately, if Smart Disk is followed up by a far Ground Plasma Shot, you will be hit even if you float (by the disc).
Something not shown in the video is you can throw a ground fan when the disk stops and recover in time to crouch-block it and any follow-up. If Predator follows up his Smart Disk with any Plasma Shot this way, he will take 6% damage from your fan (unsharpened) and you will take slightly less than 3% chip. If you are slightly further than mid-screen (one step back from starting distance) when the Smart Disc is thrown, you can Assassin Strike when the disk stops to go under it AND avoid ANY Plasma Shot follow-up EXCEPT close Ground Plasma Shot. If you think Predator is trying to bait your run-in by using Smart Disc ~ close Ground Plasma Shot, you can walk a little closer then Assassin Strike to beat it.
If you are in a close match and you absolutely, positively need to get in and are willing to spend a bar to do it, you can forward dash under a forward Plasma Shot and then EX Throat Slice (with no delay). This will beat every single follow-up Predator has including EX Forward Plasma Shot (you will take one hit) as long as you are standing in the sweet spot or closer.
Summary of Kitana's options versus Predator's after successfully forward dashing a forward Plasma Shot from (not quite) full screen:
Ground Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice, run in, forward dash (leads to pressure), jump in (leads to pressure),
Kitana loses - Fan Toss, Assassin Strike,
Far Ground Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice, run in, forward dash (leads to pressure), jump in (leads to pressure), Assassin Strike
Kitana loses - Fan Toss (blocked)
Close Ground Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - jump in (leads to pressure)
Kitana loses - Throat Slice (this can win if you are closer than the sweet spot), Assassin Strike, run in, forward dash, Fan Toss (blocked)
Forward Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins: Assassin Strike, forward dash, jump in (leads to pressure)
Kitana loses: Throat Slice, run in, Fan Toss
Up Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice (tight execution. Must delay a frame or two or you lose), Assassin Strike (tight execution with no delay or it can be blocked), run in, forward dash (leads to pressure),
Kitana loses - jump in
Smart Disc:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice, Assassin Strike, forward dash, run in, Fan Toss
Kitana loses - jump in
Block:
Kitana wins - run in (leads to pressure), forward dash (leads to pressure), jump in (leads to pressure)
Kitana loses - Throat slice, Assassin Strike, Fan Toss (blocked).
EX Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Assassin Strike! EX Throat Slice (mentioned above)
Kitana loses - forward dash, run in, jump in, Throat Slice, Fan Toss
Midscreen Smart Disc follow-up versus Assassin Strike:
Kitana wins against - forward Plasma Shot, Ground Plasma Shot, far Ground Plasma Shot, Up Plasma Shot, EX Plasma Blast
Kitana loses against - close Ground Plasma Shot, Block.
Conclusion:
The HQT match-up is still an uphill battle. There are many mind games at play here. However, when Predator uses forward Plasma Shot, it presents a unique opportunity that only two other characters in the game possess. By forward dashing under, you AND Predator have to either make some serious reads, or simply roll the dice. I do think the gamble is slightly in Kitana's favor here since some possibilities lead to full combo punishes while Predator is gaining 6-8% and maintaining space. Once you catch Predator with this tech, he is likely to start using his safest option, the close Ground Plasma Shot, more frequently, start blocking to catch your Throat Slice or Assassin Strike, and or stop using forward Plasma Shot as much. If this happens, Kitana can simply start running in as it becomes less risky with forward Plasma Shot out of the picture and you're at worse taking 6-8% from Ground Plasma Shots but gaining mid screen where Assassin Strike becomes more useful as a way of getting in.
Plus theres a psychological effect -- at least for now until it becomes more well known. I had a match (wish I had saved it) where I dashed ~ ran in for full combo twice in the opening round and it discouraged the player from trying to zone! In the final round, my Assassin Strike went under his EX Plasma Shot and he quit. Can you imagine his saltiness to not only have a high projectile forward dashed, but also to have an Assassin Strike going under three mid projectiles? It defies the game's rules, but so do a lot of other things.
I got accused of hacking. You know you might be on to something if people think you're hacking.
Anyway, I hope this improves the match-up a bit. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts, especially @xKhaoTik
What forward dash means for Scorpion or Kano, I'll leave to other players. I'm spent.
I've been researching Kitana's worst match-up against HQT Predator quite a bit recently. His zoning is a nightmare for a character with no teleport or low profiling special. Sure, you can simply armor through it, but spending bar just to get in isn't exactly in Kitana's favor. Moreover, armor can be baited, or even broken if Predator decides to spend meter himself.
So I asked myself a single question: how do you deal with his zoning if you have no meter? In a bit of an accident during play against Predator, I watched my Assassin Strike go right under Predator's forward Plasma Shot. Curious how it happened, I took to the lab to recreate the scenario. Sure enough, I discovered that Assassin Strike WILL go right under forward Plasma Shot IF you are mid-screen (a step further back from starting distance) or closer. Note, she must be "running" for it to go under.
But that's not all! I got to thinking about the discovery made about Mileena's Air Sai being able to be forward dashed after a blocked Telekick. Plasma Shot is the highest (vertically speaking) projectile in the game performed on the ground that hits opponents also on the ground. This is about the same height as Mileena's Air Sai when it hits opponents on the ground. I figured, why not try to forward dash under Plasma Shot?
Turns out that yes, you can forward dash under Predator's forward Plasma Shot on reaction IN OPEN SPACE REGARDLESS OF YOUR POSITION! What does this mean exactly? Well, I made a video below for demonstration.
Now mind you, my findings aren't a full-proof way of getting in every single time no matter what. It still requires a bit of a read, and a good amount of execution. Enjoy!
Further explanation of this tech:
Each follow-up after forward Plasma Shot assumes frame perfect execution in between. The punishes you see are legit. Delaying the shots a few frames has no baring on whether or not Predator's shot will stop you. In fact, delaying them too much works in Kitana's favor as she can get in before most shots come out. The only exception to this rule is a delayed Up Plasma Shot can catch a Throat Slice.
*THIS IS IMPORTANT!* Each punish is not technically full screen. It is a minor step forward, which I will further refer to as "the sweet spot". If you attempt from full screen, and the follow up is frame perfect behind the forward Plasma Shot, Predator can recover in time to block.
In the case of the Throat Slice punish, you must walk backwards a few frames after forward dashing to avoid being hit by Up Plasma Shot and close Ground Plasma Shot. The video demonstrates what happens if you Throat Slice too soon. By delaying your Throat Slice this way, you can beat any Plasma Shot follow-up EXCEPT a second forward Plasma Shot. It should be noted that in the case of close Ground Plasma Shot, your execution must be perfect to get the punish.
The Smart Disk: the secret to dealing with this lies in your ability to recognize the exact moment when the disk stops when it is first thrown. This is when you need to act. Where you are on screen determines what you can do. From full screen, you can neutral jump then duck a forward Plasma Shot. This is handy if you are low life and Predator is hoping to chip you to death. Unfortunately, if Smart Disk is followed up by a far Ground Plasma Shot, you will be hit even if you float (by the disc).
Something not shown in the video is you can throw a ground fan when the disk stops and recover in time to crouch-block it and any follow-up. If Predator follows up his Smart Disk with any Plasma Shot this way, he will take 6% damage from your fan (unsharpened) and you will take slightly less than 3% chip. If you are slightly further than mid-screen (one step back from starting distance) when the Smart Disc is thrown, you can Assassin Strike when the disk stops to go under it AND avoid ANY Plasma Shot follow-up EXCEPT close Ground Plasma Shot. If you think Predator is trying to bait your run-in by using Smart Disc ~ close Ground Plasma Shot, you can walk a little closer then Assassin Strike to beat it.
If you are in a close match and you absolutely, positively need to get in and are willing to spend a bar to do it, you can forward dash under a forward Plasma Shot and then EX Throat Slice (with no delay). This will beat every single follow-up Predator has including EX Forward Plasma Shot (you will take one hit) as long as you are standing in the sweet spot or closer.
Summary of Kitana's options versus Predator's after successfully forward dashing a forward Plasma Shot from (not quite) full screen:
Ground Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice, run in, forward dash (leads to pressure), jump in (leads to pressure),
Kitana loses - Fan Toss, Assassin Strike,
Far Ground Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice, run in, forward dash (leads to pressure), jump in (leads to pressure), Assassin Strike
Kitana loses - Fan Toss (blocked)
Close Ground Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - jump in (leads to pressure)
Kitana loses - Throat Slice (this can win if you are closer than the sweet spot), Assassin Strike, run in, forward dash, Fan Toss (blocked)
Forward Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins: Assassin Strike, forward dash, jump in (leads to pressure)
Kitana loses: Throat Slice, run in, Fan Toss
Up Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice (tight execution. Must delay a frame or two or you lose), Assassin Strike (tight execution with no delay or it can be blocked), run in, forward dash (leads to pressure),
Kitana loses - jump in
Smart Disc:
Kitana wins - Throat Slice, Assassin Strike, forward dash, run in, Fan Toss
Kitana loses - jump in
Block:
Kitana wins - run in (leads to pressure), forward dash (leads to pressure), jump in (leads to pressure)
Kitana loses - Throat slice, Assassin Strike, Fan Toss (blocked).
EX Plasma Shot:
Kitana wins - Assassin Strike! EX Throat Slice (mentioned above)
Kitana loses - forward dash, run in, jump in, Throat Slice, Fan Toss
Midscreen Smart Disc follow-up versus Assassin Strike:
Kitana wins against - forward Plasma Shot, Ground Plasma Shot, far Ground Plasma Shot, Up Plasma Shot, EX Plasma Blast
Kitana loses against - close Ground Plasma Shot, Block.
Conclusion:
The HQT match-up is still an uphill battle. There are many mind games at play here. However, when Predator uses forward Plasma Shot, it presents a unique opportunity that only two other characters in the game possess. By forward dashing under, you AND Predator have to either make some serious reads, or simply roll the dice. I do think the gamble is slightly in Kitana's favor here since some possibilities lead to full combo punishes while Predator is gaining 6-8% and maintaining space. Once you catch Predator with this tech, he is likely to start using his safest option, the close Ground Plasma Shot, more frequently, start blocking to catch your Throat Slice or Assassin Strike, and or stop using forward Plasma Shot as much. If this happens, Kitana can simply start running in as it becomes less risky with forward Plasma Shot out of the picture and you're at worse taking 6-8% from Ground Plasma Shots but gaining mid screen where Assassin Strike becomes more useful as a way of getting in.
Plus theres a psychological effect -- at least for now until it becomes more well known. I had a match (wish I had saved it) where I dashed ~ ran in for full combo twice in the opening round and it discouraged the player from trying to zone! In the final round, my Assassin Strike went under his EX Plasma Shot and he quit. Can you imagine his saltiness to not only have a high projectile forward dashed, but also to have an Assassin Strike going under three mid projectiles? It defies the game's rules, but so do a lot of other things.
I got accused of hacking. You know you might be on to something if people think you're hacking.
Anyway, I hope this improves the match-up a bit. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts, especially @xKhaoTik
What forward dash means for Scorpion or Kano, I'll leave to other players. I'm spent.
