Strategy - Ninjitsu Advocating the use of F42 to end combos over S4~Teleport.

[Ze Dingo]

For the entire life of Mortal Kombat X, I have been of the opinion that Scorpion (in all variations) should end his combos is S4~Teleport for a restand. Now, this has been a thing for me since 2012 when I picked up MK9.

Now, coming to Ninjutsu, I would suggest that we end combos in F42. I present below my reasons for the same.

("Scorpion" refers exclusively to Ninjutsu for the purpose of this discussion.)

1. F42 is a hard knockdown with a hit advantage of 17 frames. Scorpion's strongest oki tools in F2 and B4 start in 15 frames and 13 frames respectively.

2. Scorpion's oki game is strong. Arguably one of the best in the entire game. With the threat of F2 and B4, people will hesitate to wake up against him. This opens up your options, wherein, you can consider using B3 or F4 to continue offense once they stand up or once you know they aren't going to wake up reversal.

3. Personally, I feel that the HKD gives more utility to Scorpion than the restand. B3 can be blocked, F4 can be reacted to. Throws are very viable, but once you stop your opponent from using wakeup reversal, you can walk up and throw them anyway.

4. Delayed wake up increases your hit advantage. Not the case with restand.

5. Neutral jump not an option if they feel you're about to throw or read a throw.

6. While the restand prevents wake up shenanigans, the very fact that the opponent thinks he might have a chance at waking up when you use F42 is a mind-game in itself. Which leaves them open to your offense.

@YOMI RM JagoBlake @OutworldKeith @Matix218 @JTB123 @Crathen @Slips @Hor_PeT

If I've forgotten to tag someone, my apologies.

Edit: Added #6.

 

[Doctor Rektangle]

People use the restand.. because its THE RESTAND and doesn't allow wake up shennanigans. Although I'd advocate for using both F42 and the re-stand when the situation calls for which.

Not an situation A > Situation B case.

More like Situation A & B can work in harmony.

 

[Matix218]

I think that it depends on what kind of setup you are looking for, if you are going for oki then it definitely makes sense to end in a knockdown that will get you the most possible frames of hit advantage. However if your opponent delays their wake-up and you go for a f2 and it whiffs the situation is over and you at best lose your turn. With the +18 restand you never have to deal with delayed wake-up so anything you do that is faster than 18 frames will jail and they will have to hold it. I do absolutely believe that with the armor breaking properties of f2 and b4 that ninjutsus oki game is stronger than his standing pressure game on the whole so I completely understand your reasoning for this post but I think again it really depends on how you are trying to mix up or set up your opponent. I think both are good and both should be used. What combo are you using for the f42 ender btw? Off of say a f2, is it just f2, b2, b2, jk~teleport, 21~spear, ji2, f42?

 

[Ze Dingo]

I think that it depends on what kind of setup you are looking for, if you are going for oki then it definitely makes sense to end in a knockdown that will get you the most possible frames of hit advantage. However if your opponent delays their wake-up and you go for a f2 and it whiffs the situation is over and you at best lose your turn. With the +18 restand you never have to deal with delayed wake-up so anything you do that is faster than 18 frames will jail and they will have to hold it. I do absolutely believe that with the armor breaking properties of f2 and b4 that ninjutsus oki game is stronger than his standing pressure game on the whole so I completely understand your reasoning for this post but I think again it really depends on how you are trying to mix up or set up your opponent. I think both are good and both should be used. What combo are you using for the f42 ender btw? Off of say a f2, is it just f2, b2, b2, jk~teleport, 21~spear, ji2, f42?

Just F42 instead of 4~teleport, yes.

People use the restand.. because its THE RESTAND and doesn't allow wake up shennanigans. Although I'd advocate for using both F42 and the re-stand when the situation calls for which.

Not an situation A > Situation B case.

More like Situation A & B can work in harmony.

While the restand prevents wake up shenanigans, the very fact that the opponent thinks he might have a chance at waking up when you use F42 is a mind-game in itself. Which leaves them open to your offense.

Besides which, you're the one making the "situation", so, it's actually a setup.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I use TP restand when;

My opponent has no meter.
When I need meter.
To bait buttons.
​

Your opponent is more likely to use a wakeup reversal if they have meter.

 

[Hor_PeT]

With Ninjutsu I like both the restand and the hkd too. Both have the own advantage and mind game.

Probably using both of them during a single match/set would be the best idea as the opponent needs to guess more (but you need to guess more too!).
However conditioning works better with more actions so using one of them might be better from that point of view.

From mind game point of view using hkd is definitely a good option with Ninjutsu.

Just dont forget that the opponent has more options too (eg.delayed wake up/throw).

Eg.during a close match a hkd might be good idea as the opponnent might do a panic wake up.

Ninjutsu has strong oki game so it might be a good idea to use it more times. But it seems more risky due to various outcome.
However there might be situations where the restand is more safe (you want to chip him out, close to the end etc).

 

[Ze Dingo]

You both make fair points.

 

[OutworldKeith]

@Hor_PeT I don't think it's as risky since the XL update. B4 being safe made his oki better & opens up the rest of his options.

F2 was just not reliable against certain characters. KL, Reptile, Subz, etc. could all just block F2 then punish with a reversal. They could also blow up all his other options once they took away F2.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I use TP restand when;

My opponent has no meter.
When I need meter.
To bait buttons.
​

Your opponent is more likely to use a wakeup reversal if they have meter.

exactly this

Scorpion is a restand character specially in Ninjutsu not to try oh/low mixups afterwards, the restand disables wakeups, you get to build more meter, throw more, you bait more buttons, not only with the fake going in after the tele, to imediately back away from a panic button and punish, but also to close in as if you were to throw them only to punish panic buttons with B12~ex tp.

Restand gives scorpion more options to open someone up who already has no wakeup at all, everytime his tp hits someone on a restand it becomes a frame trap.

and you can either play safe with more stagger pressure which doesn't gives off your offense that easy.

 

[Poser Paul]

Just end in 21. You get a free f42

 

[braandooon]

You forgot to tag me :3 I main Scorpion but I'm a no one Nice find/tip.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Just end in 21. You get a free f42

Getting a free F42 isn't even the point, here... Did you even read the entire thing?

 

[Poser Paul]

Getting a free F42 isn't even the point, here... Did you even read the entire thing?

I skimmed through but what I did see was people discussing enders

 

[Ze Dingo]

I skimmed through but what I did see was people discussing enders

 

[Poser Paul]

It's better than ending in f42 to begin with

 

[Matix218]

It's better than ending in f42 to begin with

how? At least ending in F42 still gets you full damage and sets up ninjutsu's strong oki game. Ending in 21 sacrifices damage and you may as well just end in s4~teleport at that point. Why would you even want a free f42 anyway?

 

[Poser Paul]

how? At least ending in F42 still gets you full damage and sets up ninjutsu's strong oki game. Ending in 21 sacrifices damage and you may as well just end in s4~teleport at that point. Why would you even want a free f42 anyway?

After 21, if they're conditioned you can go for

 

[Poser Paul]

After 21, if they're conditioned you can go for

B3. You can go for f4 ex spear or b3 ex spear if you want as well.

 

[Poser Paul]

You can also just end in s4 and then go for f2 if you're trying to bait something or stay at a safe distance

 

[Sage Leviathan]

I advocate b32f2 over f42.
Also, I advocate s4~tele over everything.

 

[Ze Dingo]

I advocate b32f2 over f42.
Also, I advocate s4~tele over everything.

Why B32F2? Granted, it's also a HKD, but it's only +7... All your oki tools might get beaten out by a wake-up reversal.

 

[Poser Paul]

Why B32F2? Granted, it's also a HKD, but it's only +7... All your oki tools might get beaten out by a wake-up reversal.

Doesn't scorpion have the best tools to deal with wake ups

 

[OutworldKeith]

Doesn't scorpion have the best tools to deal with wake ups

Ninjutsu does yes.

Still, there are characters that have better tools arguably. Predator's disk is a perfect example.

 

[OutworldKeith]

You can also just end in s4 and then go for f2 if you're trying to bait something or stay at a safe distance

The point of the thread is that we should go for the KD instead of the restand. Obviously to abuse Ninjutsu's okizeme.

 

[Poser Paul]

The point of the thread is that we should go for the KD instead of the restand. Obviously to abuse Ninjutsu's okizeme.

And I'm saying a different way instead of the knockdown

Ninjutsu does yes.

Still, there are characters that have better tools arguably. Predator's disk is a perfect example.

And what does pred have to do with the knockdown