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Accepted Tournament Version of Killer Instinct, and should Cinder be banned?

9.95

9.95

Champion
Tim and I have been having an interesting conversation since I held the KI tournament at NECX. After NEC, I started becoming more active over on the (relatively dead) Killerinstinctonline forum, and it seems that they generally accept the SNES version as being a superior game to the arcade version.

Based on what Redeyeguy says in this video:



Now, I ran KI on Mame using rev 1.5d without knowing this. Personally, I tend to believe in using a game's most recent arcade revision as the standard, but now that games are made concurrently for consoles and arcades, with console versions getting patches and updates, this can be considered a moot point. If KI SNES really does have a better system with fixed issues and bugs, does it make it the optimal version to use for tournament play, or do you go with the buggier arcade version simply because it's the latest arcade revision?

Also, is the SNES version what Rare considers to be the best and cleanest version of KI, fixing as many bugs and broken parts of the arcade game for a home release, or are the "fixes" just a by-product of watering down the arcade game to make it play on the SNES?

Lasty, the question has to be asked... Does Cinder warrant a ban? And, if so, does his removal make the arcade 1.5d revision the viable tournament version over the SNES version?
Based on Redeyeguy's video:


If Cinder's infinite juggle in the arcade version is banned, doesn't it seem as if he's even more broken on SNES than he is in the arcade version? Also, if he is more broken in the SNES, does his universal banning on either the SNES and Arcade make the arcade version the viable tournament version again over the SNES?
 
9.95

9.95

Champion
I know how badly broken the game is, but again, is Cinder really ban worthy? I mean, don't get me wrong... these guys are supposedly the pros at KI, but I have my doubts as to the level of work they've put into the game compared to the level of work we've seen from MK2 and UMK3. I wonder if it's just that nobody ever put the work in to determine if Cinder is the Akuma of KI or if he's just simply the Kabal of KI.
 
9.95

9.95

Champion
I'm actually posting consistently over on KIO about this subject. If I'm going to have more KI tournaments in the future, these have to be figured out.

1. Ban Cinder? If his bugs are banned, how can you prove when someone is really exploiting the little ones, especially in an online tourney? Word against word won't work, so banning may be the only option. Also, what's acceptable...use 32 seconds of the timer glitch, but not 33 seconds? Not use his range but his crossover flame is ok? At what point is it no longer discretionary to use these?

2. If Cinder is universally banned, does it make the arcade version the standard for tournament play?
 
9.95

9.95

Champion
Based on the discussion over on KIO, as per what Redeyeguy is explaining to me, Orchid is like the Kabal of KI, and Riptor to some degree as well, whereas Cinder is the Akuma of KI.

Essentially, in the hands of equally skilled players, the other characters simply do not have the tools to deal with Cinder and his bugs. This is what got Akuma banned.

If this is really true, then it's time to ban Cinder from tournament play. Otherwise, Orchid and Riptor are fine because they are no different than H.Smoke/Kabal.
 
9.95

9.95

Champion
I'm actually going to ask redeyeguy to sign up here and read this thread...

What he says is that the arcade version falls apart at high levels. Orchid is even deadlier b/c she has increased range, and even if Cinder is banned, in the arcade version, Riptor only stands about a 30% chance against Orchid.
 
R

redeyeguy

Noob
Ok, to start things off..

CINDER: There has generally been some sort of etiquette among KI players since the beginning, since arcade, xband, and even today on Zbattle. Cinder abuse is almost always looked down upon, due to the extreme combination of his ridiculous character design and severe glitches. With glitches included, Cinder easily becomes the Akuma of KI; broken, almost unstoppable. In arcade version however, Orchid was technically #1, because even though Cinder had glitches, he had no way of being able to hit her - she out-ranged him and forced him on the defensive. In SNES however, Cinder's versatility due to being able to use medium punches reliably, and also his air crossover torpedo seems to have a larger hitbox. He has an advantage vs Orchid now because of his easier crossovers and her reduced range (arcade Orchid had more range), and especially because his invisibility no longer has flames, making him harder to see and fight. Yet in the longrun, arcade Cinder is just more broken and braindead than his SNES counter part. The arcade Cinder had some unbreakable enders and linkers, had his infinite juggles, and the glitches that remained on SNES were generally easier to do on arcade than on SNES. It's just that the arcade version was an incredibly unbalanced game, far more so than SNES. In arcade, outside of Cinder and Orchid, it's pretty much pointless.

Now banning Cinder would definitely solve a lot of problems. It is hard to moderate such a glitchy character. When he has his glitches removed, he is still like a really hyped up Kabal. So either way, Cinder is a tough bastard. Many will argue that in SNES, when his bugs are restricted, he becomes a "fair character", and there will be some dispute among players on banning Cinder based on this argument. Unfortunately, KI has MANY instances where the gameplay is broken by severe bugs, and this occurs in some other characters as well. Cinder is the worst instance however, and has multiple "touch of death" options. So banning may not be an entirely bad idea but then that leaves a next scenario..

Orchid completely whoops the ass of everyone once Cinder is gone. In arcade, Riptor (3rd best character) cannot reliably use his c.MP in the medium to close game, and in both versions his c.FP does not hit low. He is completely out ranged and out classed by Orchid, and the same pretty much happens for the rest of the cast as well. Orchid can fight at distances others cannot, and can constantly put pressure on them by merely standing at the distance from opponent. She is the best upclose fighter, as she has many options for opening on characters, and has the most options for resetting combos and changing the pace of the match, making her more unpredictable and harder to follow than other characters. Orchid is a powerhouse.

After Orchid, the game starts to become a lil' less exaggerated, with Riptor and Glacius beating the rest of the cast by a good margin, though not completely destroying them like Cinder and Orchid. KI is very much affected by tiers, and is full of a variety of things that causes the game to fall apart in both versions. Arcade is more vulnerable to these slip-ups however, and much of the clumsiness from arcade was removed in SNES. Also, due to SNES' fix on c.MP, several characters were improved, and TJ in particular being the most improved character (he sucked in arcade, and became good in SNES). This results in many characters started standing better chance vs the top tiers, and balance overall being improved.

I still conclude SNES is the best version of KI, and the most tourney-worthy due to superior playability and being the more solid fighter.

Tournament rules for KI would be a bit awkward and confusing at times, because KI is just that broken of a game.
 
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