Why does Sonic Fox win everything?

I've waited for a thread like this for so long because I too am baffled by how top players spend hundreds of hours studying the game just to go up against Sonic and get beaten so quick that you think he was in a hurry to get home. It really confuses me how good he is. I wouldn't say his reaction time is anything below 25 frames. 15 frames means the game is simply moving in slow motion for him if he can easily react. His reflexes are really good though. I just think he knows the tendencies of every top player and just uses it to his own advantage. He may get a flesh wound every now and then but he comes out on top. I can count on one hand the amount times that I thought anybody else but Sonicfox was going to win a major. At least in Smash, you got a different face at a lot of competitions but I'm tired of seeing that blue hat but at the same time I can't help but awe at his skill and his Wolverine CLUTCH FACTOR. Idk how many times I saw sonic make a comeback from a situation that almost every other person would've choked it.

TLDR - I too am confused as to why he's as good as he is. There's clearly a gap in skill between Sonic and any player you would consider to be second best at NRS.

Soul Bound X said:

The problem is people are giving me knee jerk reactions. They are also not thinking about what they are implying in what they say. There isn't a nice way to say "you're not working hard enough.". But this is a very plausible reason why sonic fox keeps winning. But when people say he just has "natural talent", what are they really saying? They are saying he is smarter than the competition, which implies the competition simply isn't smart enough to win. Saying a top player needs to practice more is a lot less offensive to me than saying "well he should give up because he just isn't smart enough." . What I'm saying isn't that controversial. If I were a top competitor in this game, let's say i'm tekken master in grand finals against sonic fox and I lose, my response to that is definitely going to be "I'm going to go home, study every detail of these matches, train hard, and come back and win." . That's the right response to have. And what does that response imply? It implies that you have work to do. You have to work at it, work harder. This what I've been saying and I don't see it as controversial.

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You're absolutely right; it is a plausible reason and not controversial. But it isn't the only plausible reason. I agree that it is likely the biggest factor, but to consider it the only factor is binary thinking. It's not an either/or question. People have outlined a multitude of possible answers and you dismiss them all entirely in favor of the one reason, when it is very likely that many of these things contribute.

Why is it that you equate admitting someone is smarter than you with admitting defeat? Neil DeGrasse Tyson is smarter than me. I better just give up and never look at the stars again. Let's break down the kind of intelligences required for fighting games. There's a degree of kinesthetic intelligence in the manual dexterity required for your general level of execution. Interpersonal intelligence is heavily involved due to the meta. This is where I believe Sonic truly excels. It's his ability to read people and play mind games. Intrapersonal Intelligence is self reflection, being aware of one's strengths and weaknesses. It would also be quite important for analyzing footage of yourself to improve. Visual-Spatial Intelligence is a huge factor in playing the neutral game. I bet Daigo and Infiltration are off the charts in this category. I'm not sure if Logical-mathematical intelligence is involved, honestly. If it is, it's in the ability to break down the system of the game and come up with the most efficient strategies.

All of these things are important, impact the ability of a player, and are not necessarily simple to train. Sonic seems to excel in all of them. This is all part of that talent people talk about. It's why he gets more out of the time he puts in than most others, which is in turn compounded by the fact that he does work hard by all accounts. Though as I stated in an earlier post, we don't actually know he works hardest.

Just saying he's really smart seems a bit reductionist to me when we can analyze the impact of all these individual aspects. He may eclipse others in many of these areas but that doesn't mean it's time to give up, which as far as I'm aware, no top players have done. They're still trying, y'know. You can beat someone that's smarter than you.

most sports or competitive things have one person or maybe two thats in their own league. i guess for mkx its sonicfox

Second Saint said:

This whole thread comes down to Nature vs Nurture in a way. People are taking sides on the issue looking for a simple easily explainable answer. Whether he is simply innately good or entirely learned to be this good. It's just not that simple though, because he's not dominant due to one factor. It's all of it. It's his hard work, talent (a thing that exists despite your beliefs), reaction times, inter/intrapersonal intelligence, and ability to remain calm under pressure.

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I believe OP intention was not to hold debates over sonic fox phenomena, but to ask other top players what they think they are lacking, that in turn leads to Sonic Fox being unbeatable. That would be a rather interesting statistics IF they bothered to answer, which they didnt.

As for your notion of equal effort =/= equal results, its hardly possible to determine equal effort. It is common, however, that when a lot of people desire the same thing competition happen. In reality success of one competitor lead to advantage (think of it as RPG-style level up) of one player(s) over other, where sequence of success lead to monopoly. It is possible b/c your success doesnt reset after each deal you strike. In real life there are ways to convert experience into something that improves your further success chances, be it money or valuable contacts. This doesnt work for FGs. Your experience is the only thing you have and with large enough competition it will inveitably lead to your loss no matter how "talented" you are. So either competition isnt large enough or isnt good enough.

"We talking about practice? Practice?"
Lol anybody know the reference?

honeybooboo said:

"We talking about practice? Practice?"
Lol anybody know the reference?

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Allen Iverson quote, right?

Eldriken said:

Allen Iverson quote, right?

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Lol yea.
All this talk about labbing and practicing made me think about this

Soul Bound X said:

The problem is people are giving me knee jerk reactions. They are also not thinking about what they are implying in what they say. There isn't a nice way to say "you're not working hard enough.". But this is a very plausible reason why sonic fox keeps winning. But when people say he just has "natural talent", what are they really saying? They are saying he is smarter than the competition, which implies the competition simply isn't smart enough to win. Saying a top player needs to practice more is a lot less offensive to me than saying "well he should give up because he just isn't smart enough." . What I'm saying isn't that controversial. If I were a top competitor in this game, let's say i'm tekken master in grand finals against sonic fox and I lose, my response to that is definitely going to be "I'm going to go home, study every detail of these matches, train hard, and come back and win." . That's the right response to have. And what does that response imply? It implies that you have work to do. You have to work at it, work harder. This what I've been saying and I don't see it as controversial.

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I'll try to answer your op. I think sonic fox is clearly the best mkx player. But this is what nobody has said yet: At the end of the day the competition just isn't high enough. Yes, it's obviously possible for him to be beat but sonic fox keeps beating the same people. They obviously don't lab like he does and or don't have as good of a feel for the game. One of those two reasons HAS TO BE TRUE bcuz sonic fox keeps winning. It doesn't really matter which one it is. To say he's this amazing prodigy is only partially true bcuz why isn't he winning in SFV? I'll tell you why, bcuz the competition is waay too strong with waay more players and players who kno that it's going to take a 100% life dedication to win. Sonic fox is the only one setting the bar in mkx it seems but until he wins in sf I can't call him a prodigy. I've been playing mkx waaaay more than sfv yet during evo I was much more interested in sfv bcuz I kno the competition is much greater. Daigo didn't even make top 32, that's how deep the competition is. If all the sfv players switched to mkx I guarantee sonic fox would be knocked off soon. And I don't want to hear anything about experience bcuz sfv is a brand new game no matter which way you look at it which is why we're seeing new faces at evo in top 8.

Second Saint said:

You're absolutely right; it is a plausible reason and not controversial. But it isn't the only plausible reason. I agree that it is likely the biggest factor, but to consider it the only factor is binary thinking. It's not an either/or question. People have outlined a multitude of possible answers and you dismiss them all entirely in favor of the one reason, when it is very likely that many of these things contribute.

Why is it that you equate admitting someone is smarter than you with admitting defeat? Neil DeGrasse Tyson is smarter than me. I better just give up and never look at the stars again. Let's break down the kind of intelligences required for fighting games. There's a degree of kinesthetic intelligence in the manual dexterity required for your general level of execution. Interpersonal intelligence is heavily involved due to the meta. This is where I believe Sonic truly excels. It's his ability to read people and play mind games. Intrapersonal Intelligence is self reflection, being aware of one's strengths and weaknesses. It would also be quite important for analyzing footage of yourself to improve. Visual-Spatial Intelligence is a huge factor in playing the neutral game. I bet Daigo and Infiltration are off the charts in this category. I'm not sure if Logical-mathematical intelligence is involved, honestly. If it is, it's in the ability to break down the system of the game and come up with the most efficient strategies.

All of these things are important, impact the ability of a player, and are not necessarily simple to train. Sonic seems to excel in all of them. This is all part of that talent people talk about. It's why he gets more out of the time he puts in than most others, which is in turn compounded by the fact that he does work hard by all accounts. Though as I stated in an earlier post, we don't actually know he works hardest.

Just saying he's really smart seems a bit reductionist to me when we can analyze the impact of all these individual aspects. He may eclipse others in many of these areas but that doesn't mean it's time to give up, which as far as I'm aware, no top players have done. They're still trying, y'know. You can beat someone that's smarter than you.

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Second Saint said:

You're absolutely right; it is a plausible reason and not controversial. But it isn't the only plausible reason. I agree that it is likely the biggest factor, but to consider it the only factor is binary thinking. It's not an either/or question. People have outlined a multitude of possible answers and you dismiss them all entirely in favor of the one reason, when it is very likely that many of these things contribute.

Why is it that you equate admitting someone is smarter than you with admitting defeat? Neil DeGrasse Tyson is smarter than me. I better just give up and never look at the stars again. Let's break down the kind of intelligences required for fighting games. There's a degree of kinesthetic intelligence in the manual dexterity required for your general level of execution. Interpersonal intelligence is heavily involved due to the meta. This is where I believe Sonic truly excels. It's his ability to read people and play mind games. Intrapersonal Intelligence is self reflection, being aware of one's strengths and weaknesses. It would also be quite important for analyzing footage of yourself to improve. Visual-Spatial Intelligence is a huge factor in playing the neutral game. I bet Daigo and Infiltration are off the charts in this category. I'm not sure if Logical-mathematical intelligence is involved, honestly. If it is, it's in the ability to break down the system of the game and come up with the most efficient strategies.

All of these things are important, impact the ability of a player, and are not necessarily simple to train. Sonic seems to excel in all of them. This is all part of that talent people talk about. It's why he gets more out of the time he puts in than most others, which is in turn compounded by the fact that he does work hard by all accounts. Though as I stated in an earlier post, we don't actually know he works hardest.

Just saying he's really smart seems a bit reductionist to me when we can analyze the impact of all these individual aspects. He may eclipse others in many of these areas but that doesn't mean it's time to give up, which as far as I'm aware, no top players have done. They're still trying, y'know. You can beat someone that's smarter than you.

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I'm the opponent he is facing in this video. Considered by most gen 2 players at the time to be the best gen 2 player in the world.

To prove that is me here is a screen shot that I just uploaded of when I was extremely dominant on the ladder and just dominant in general. http://imgur.com/caWW7cY To give you an idea of how impressive it is to be over 100 points above the 2nd place guy in your elo, I've actually never seen anyone come close to being any where near that dominant on ANY pokemon ladder before. I don't want to say I'm the first because I just dk but I've never seen it done before.

Now in pokemon the ladder is a good indication of who the best players are but we usually have tournaments to determine who the best at that time is. But I officially became noticed as one the best players in gen 2 and if you ask me who I think the best player in gen 2 is, I'll definitely say myself without conceit. I truly believe I play on a slightly higher level than whoever the second place guy is. My ability to keep in mind all of the pp of all of my moves, and every health point of my pokemon, and my ability to calculate far into the future keeping every outcome and option in mind I don't think is matched by anyone. I'm not leagues and leagues above the competition but I'm not equal to them. I've played everyone who the community considers good and have beaten them more than they have me. Yes the community is smaller than your average fighting game community but the game is so old and all the secrets are out which makes competition stiff. Gen 2 is known as one the deepest gens also, which is part of the reason I play it. Now I lose in that video haha, because it was probably late and I shouldn't of been playing and I was having an off day, but regardless I usually beat that guy and here is another video of me beating him just for the hell of it

So that stupid "where's your evo trophy" post kinda looks dumb now huh fellas . lol. I actually do know a little something about being the best at something. I agree with you that you HAVE to be smart to be good. You have to be. You have to have all those mental gifts that you mentioned. But I believe that foxy and other top players such as tekken master are on the same level mentally. I'm sorry that I only keep bringing foxy up but he is the only player who plays mkx that i've played in another fighting game (besides sonic fox but he wasn't the sonic fox we know today when he played mk9) . So I know just how smart he is. I know he is not just being trumped by the intelligence of sonic fox. Whatever sonic fox does during the game can be analyzed and figured out. He's not performing sorcery when he plays. You can look back at his games and say "oh, I see what he was doing there." . Whatever he does can be learned. Yes, being smart maybe makes you learn things faster, but I just am not going to believe that the other top players can't learn to play like sonic fox.

In melee they learn. They watch videos and they learn and then they win. Armada won ALOT last year. People studied up and learned to play against him and now he doesn't win a lot anymore. The same will probably eventually happen to hungry box. He is dominant now but people are already showing that they're learning what he does and learning to counter it. The top players don't go making excuses saying "he's just too damn smart." . And just keeping it real, that is an excuse. They figure out the problem and then they start winning. Sonic Fox, if you are a top player, is a problem you just have to figure out. You have to theorize and watch him and learn new ways to beat him. It's what we do in melee and it has to be the same way here or he is just going to keep walking all over you guys. If you are just going to accept he has an ability that you can't have, he's not defeating you, you're defeating yourself.

Soul Bound X said:

Look at the likes Foxy's response to me has. He is obviously offended by what I said and people agree that he should be offended. They think I'm attacking him. Let me tell you what I think of a foxy grampa. Some of you may not know but he discovered all of the tech for cage in mk9, my main character. He discovered a lot of tech for rain. He discovered almost all of the tech for sonya. And he created Bird Lao which most people STILL think is just a legend. Only us who played him are true believers in that amazing animal. I played forever king quite a bit in mk9 and he mained lao. He got 3rd at the last real big evo for mk9 in 2012. Well I played both their laos and foxy's was just on another level. I truly believe if foxy didn't bust his head open and didnt counter pick himself against cd jr, and went full lao, he could of really won evo 2012. So I think he is World Champion material and have praised how good he is numerous times and even praised him IN THIS THREAD.

Yet he replies to me as if I called him trash and people are liking responses like this toward me. If you were to censor me and someone tried to defend me there would be people saying "DIDN'T YOU SEE HE WAS BASHING FOXY AND OTHER TOP PLAYERS!!!!". But those are opinions. We should be allowed to have them. Even if they are the "wrong" opinions.

Edit: sorry, meant evo 2012. Holy shit it's been a long time.

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Wanna know why YOU haven't gotten your posts deleted? Because you have been on topic and presented your ideas in a coherent manner and defended them accordingly. Other dude is CLEARLY just being an asshole for the sake of it. This is a community forum site, not a public forum and there are rules we all agreed to for posting. And he was breaking them just to troll. There's voicing unpopular opinions and then there is deliberately being rude and provocative, and he clearly was the latter.

These Mods do a fantastic job weeding out the douchebags on here.

I think he just makes better reads and is faster at assessing a situation. I couldn't even imagine being in sonic fox head when he's playing. To play at high level you have to know every single move someone has and most people can not do that. He also mixes it up more than other people so people can't make reads on him.

TackyHaddock said:

Imo the main distinguishing factor is Sonic's ability to download his opponent's patterns and get a read on them faster than anyone else can. Whereas many of us could start to really download an opponent's patterns after let's say a 5-10 game set, Sonic usually seems to be able to do so after a round or two (with rare exceptions like his match vs. Tekken master). This "x factor", combined with encyclopedic knowledge of every character in the game makes losses extremely few and far between.

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Well then it's the players fault. Should be using gigabit internet at high level play for faster downloading.

ChoseDeath said:

Wanna know why YOU haven't gotten your posts deleted? Because you have been on topic and presented your ideas in a coherent manner and defended them accordingly. Other dude is CLEARLY just being an asshole for the sake of it. This is a community forum site, not a public forum and there are rules we all agreed to for posting. And he was breaking them just to troll. There's voicing unpopular opinions and then there is deliberately being rude and provocative, and he clearly was the latter.

These Mods do a fantastic job weeding out the douchebags on here.

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Wow! calling me names and insulting me. Yet your post still get to stay up. Ive insulted NO ONE and yet my post still get deleted. Yeah, you all have the privilege to say anything you want about me without fear of repurcussions. I on the other hand dont have the right to properly defend myself. Its cool. #ButThatsNoneOfMyBusiness #ModFavoritismHasBeenValidated

"They haven't said how they would do it."

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Floyd said it was going to be a boxing match so yeah, they did.

Floyd is intrigued. The numbers the two fighters can create makes it intriguing and its a win-win situation for everyone. So, both fighters popped off a little. Its what they both do. They're showmen. They're champions.

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That has nothing to do with anything of the context of the discussion but ok.

Sonic Fox competes on a different venue, but the mindset is the same.

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But is he winning?

Sonic Fox has done surprisingly well in SFV, considering he's relatively new to the series

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No, he did well at Final Round. Then proceeded to get bodied everywhere else. If you don't at the very least make top 30 you're a scrub at top level in any game, period.

and considering the amount of time he has to commit to MKX to stay on top. By him picking Fang, he's telling you that if he could win at SFV - it would truly be a having his cake and eating it too experience.

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Excuses and more excuses. He plays Ibuki as well. So you're saying SonicFox is purposely handicapping himself to prove a point? That makes no sense whatsoever.

For how salty you already are, just be glad he didn't choose Nash or Chun Li from go.

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Im salty because SonicFox failed your expectations of him and proved my point and all of you wrong? Ok.

Tell me, if MKX takes no skill - then why aren't the fighting game gods from other games coming over to dominate?

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Because theres more money to be made in street fighter. Its the #1 most popular and main staged fighter for a reason. Beside you have Tekken players dominating in your game but aren't doing so in ours so there goes that argument.

But im sure this heavily tamed non-insulting post will "Mysteriously" disappear for "breaking the rules" again. So view while you can =/ If you all don't wanna hear my opinion then stop responding to me so I dont have a reason to keep giving it. Its that simple.

CUTWEST said:

Floyd said it was going to be a boxing match so yeah, they did.


That has nothing to do with anything of the context of the discussion but ok.



But is he winning?


No, he did well at Final Round. Then proceeded to get bodied everywhere else. If you don't at the very least make top 30 you're a scrub at top level in any game, period.



Excuses and more excuses. He plays Ibuki as well. So you're saying SonicFox is purposely handicapping himself to prove a point? That makes no sense whatsoever.



Im salty because SonicFox failed your expectations of him and proved my point and all of you wrong? Ok.




Because theres more money to be made in street fighter. Its the #1 most popular and main staged fighter for a reason. Beside you have Tekken players dominating in your game but aren't doing so in ours so there goes that argument.

But im sure this heavily tamed non-insulting post will "Mysteriously" disappear for "breaking the rules" again. So view while you can =/

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Now let's learn from our past mistakes thread readers. If you don't want this person talking anymore then DON'T RESPOND

Soul Bound X said:

Now let's learn from our past mistakes thread readers. If you don't want this person talking anymore then DON'T RESPOND

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Duly noted.

CUTWEST said:

*snip*

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I don't even know why I'm doing this, but...

You insulted the entire NRS community by pretty much calling them all stupid. Also, had your post not been riddled with nonsense, it could have been cleaned up and had certain bits removed. But since the vast majority of your posts are filled with nothing but shitposting towards NRS as a whole, it was kinda impossible to do that.

For you disliking this community so much, you sure are making quite the scene out of this whole situation. Just keep to yourself until you can learn to actually communicate without making an ass out of yourself.

Did you notice that your most recent message didn't get deleted/altered in any type of way? It's because you responded in an appropriate manner compared to how you were before.

Eldriken said:

I don't even know why I'm doing this, but...

You insulted the entire NRS community by pretty much calling them all stupid. Also, had your post not been riddled with nonsense, it could have been cleaned up and had certain bits removed. But since the vast majority of your posts are filled with nothing but shitposting towards NRS as a whole, it was kinda impossible to do that.

For you disliking this community so much, you sure are making quite the scene out of this whole situation. Just keep to yourself until you can learn to actually communicate without making an ass out of yourself.

Also, if you consider being called an "asshole" as an insult, you ought to grow some thicker skin. Calling people/an entire community stupid is completely different.

Did you notice that your most recent message didn't get deleted/altered in any type of way? It's because you responded in an appropriate manner compared to how you were before.

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Wow sir. You have just insulted me. I take offense at what you have just said by calling me an "ass". Please kindly give yourself an infraction for insulting a member of this board on a technicality.

edit:
Be absolute sure to give ChoseDeath one for continually and constantly insulting me as well. I am offended. Gotta be fair you know. As Mod of this board you can't show favoritism. Everyone gets the same treatment.

CUTWEST said:

Wow sir. You have just insulted me. I take offense at what you have just said by calling me an "ass". Please kindly give yourself an infraction for insulting a member of this board on a technicality.

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Hahahaha. This guy.... jesus

Eldriken said:

I don't even know why I'm doing this, but...

You insulted the entire NRS community by pretty much calling them all stupid. Also, had your post not been riddled with nonsense, it could have been cleaned up and had certain bits removed. But since the vast majority of your posts are filled with nothing but shitposting towards NRS as a whole, it was kinda impossible to do that.

For you disliking this community so much, you sure are making quite the scene out of this whole situation. Just keep to yourself until you can learn to actually communicate without making an ass out of yourself.

Did you notice that your most recent message didn't get deleted/altered in any type of way? It's because you responded in an appropriate manner compared to how you were before.

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You have the patience of a saint. Especially since the other person responded to this by being an utter smart-ass. I hope my "ignore" setting works on him.

ChoseDeath said:

You have the patience of a saint. Especially since the other person responded to this by being an utter smart-ass. I hope my "ignore" setting works on him.

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He did but did we expect anything else? We knew he was going to say something annoying. If everyone would of listened to me and not responded I'm sure he wouldn't of had posted anymore. His profile pic is the capcom logo, he's an obvious troll.

And also, while on the topic of warnings, I was looking through mine and my favorite is "Racist, homophobic, sexist behavior / language" lol. Because it sounds waaaaaayyy worse than it actually is.

CUTWEST said:

Wow sir. You have just insulted me. I take offense at what you have just said by calling me an "ass". Please kindly give yourself an infraction for insulting a member of this board on a technicality.

edit:
Be absolute sure to give ChoseDeath one for continually and constantly insulting me as well. I am offended. Gotta be fair you know. As Mod of this board you can't show favoritism. Everyone gets the same treatment.

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Well, bye!

CUTWEST said:

Wow sir. You have just insulted me. I take offense at what you have just said by calling me an "ass". Please kindly give yourself an infraction for insulting a member of this board on a technicality.

edit:
Be absolute sure to give ChoseDeath one for continually and constantly insulting me as well. I am offended. Gotta be fair you know. As Mod of this board you can't show favoritism. Everyone gets the same treatment.

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I think it's time you put it to rest.

CUTWEST said:

Wow! calling me names and insulting me. Yet your post still get to stay up. Ive insulted NO ONE and yet my post still get deleted. Yeah, you all have the privilege to say anything you want about me without fear of repurcussions. I on the other hand dont have the right to properly defend myself. Its cool. #ButThatsNoneOfMyBusiness #ModFavoritismHasBeenValidated

Floyd said it was going to be a boxing match so yeah, they did.


That has nothing to do with anything of the context of the discussion but ok.



But is he winning?


No, he did well at Final Round. Then proceeded to get bodied everywhere else. If you don't at the very least make top 30 you're a scrub at top level in any game, period.



Excuses and more excuses. He plays Ibuki as well. So you're saying SonicFox is purposely handicapping himself to prove a point? That makes no sense whatsoever.



Im salty because SonicFox failed your expectations of him and proved my point and all of you wrong? Ok.




Because theres more money to be made in street fighter. Its the #1 most popular and main staged fighter for a reason. Beside you have Tekken players dominating in your game but aren't doing so in ours so there goes that argument.

But im sure this heavily tamed non-insulting post will "Mysteriously" disappear for "breaking the rules" again. So view while you can =/ If you all don't wanna hear my opinion then stop responding to me so I dont have a reason to keep giving it. Its that simple.

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You are a pretty terrible troll.

lookgirlitsteejay said:

To be fair, he probably would have lost to tekken master if Alien was deleted from the game . Buuuut


PAULOS VISION TOO STRONG

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You're likely joking, but TM really dropped the ball in that final round with some dropped combos and crucial missed punishes. It easily could have gone the other way.

It's because @SonicFox5000 has #FurryPowah.