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Why does Sonic Fox win everything?

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Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
ChoseDeath said:
That's fair of you. But for all I know you are just making those secret conversations up. Or maybe you're telling the truth entirely. I do not know. But, even if it is honest of you and for a good reason, not showing any hard evidence to support your point will not change my mind.

And OK, I will absolutely agree with your point that you have not, neither directly nor implied, called anyone lazy, and I further agree that is not what we're talking about.

However, I still find it incredibly hard to believe that people aren't beating Sonic due to incorrect training methods or not enough match up knowledge. I would have believed that last year but now? I remain unconvinced.

However, the man who started this thread has been kind enough to start this line of questioning, so we'll see where it goes.
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Well if it helps the variation I was told was viable because "Just play this guy and you'll see" was Ancestral, and the other conversation was about Kenjutsu. As I said don't really want to call out people because that's not me and I'm not trying to say they're bad, I just think there's too much assumption and not enough labbing sometimes.

All it takes to see there's a lack of matchup knowledge in some places are people getting hit by gimmicks like Erron's 11B3 into coin or people still not fuzzying Alien's DB3/BF4 like Dragon claims Sonic has practiced to the point he can't open him up any more (although that is harder and even Sonic got hit with flip in tournament sometimes).
 
Tanno

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
Youphemism said:
Well if it helps the variation I was told was viable because "Just play this guy and you'll see" was Ancestral, and the other conversation was about Kenjutsu. As I said don't really want to call out people because that's not me and I'm not trying to say they're bad, I just think there's too much assumption and not enough labbing sometimes.

All it takes to see there's a lack of matchup knowledge in some places are people getting hit by gimmicks like Erron's 11B3 into coin or people still not fuzzying Alien's DB3/BF4 like Dragon claims Sonic has practiced to the point he can't open him up any more (although that is harder and even Sonic got hit with flip in tournament sometimes).
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To lab upon a character is good. This way you find new and unused combos. This also helps you getting better. You don't need anybody's assumptions. You just need experience.

Based on what you said in your 2nd paragraph, I would say that Dragon caught him off guard, because Fox didn't know the animation there. Learning your main characters and your opponents' strong and weak points is a plus of being the best. The rest is upon you of how you act in every match.

;)
 
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THTB

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Youphemism said:
I disagree with that. "Naturally" not being good or being good at something is just an excuse imo and I doubt is a proven thing. Practice, dedication, study, whatever you do as long as you put time and effort into it will pay off as long as you're doing it right. Someone who's "naturally" good at something still has to practice it too.
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I'm not saying you don't. Both play a factor. Even if you practice a lot, someone who naturally is more gifted than you is likely going to edge you out if they play the game as much as you. No practice for anyone won't do any good. But some people have the ability, some just don't. It's not always an excuse...some players are just better for whatever reason lol.

Beating SonicFox right now is a matter of studying the game as well as he does, as well as being as gifted as he is. You can know all your shit, but if you can't make the decisions, execute, or react as well as he does, that knowledge might not save you.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Youphemism said:
Noone just automatically ends up being good at fighting games. But as this community likes to do they forget. Sonic didn't just start winning everything, he didn't during MK9s prime, he didn't when he played Harley and he didn't when he started playing Batgirl. This "natural talent" thing is overplayed, it came from time in the lab, dedication, playing matchups and breaking down the game and its characters. Yes he's good, but that stems from his previous experience with multiple fighting games.

Says people not putting in their full efforts the way Sonic does into learning about as many variations as possible is "naive, disingenuous and insulting"
Says tons of time and hard work is how he got good

Instead of throwing out random buzzwords to sound offended make sure you're not contradicting yourself first.
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I mean, he won his first MK9 major at 15 years old in his first competitive game. And he did it mostly playing the characters he wanted to play. Others have worked their whole careers not to even get close.

It doesn't mean that others can't continue to improve and get better (and there's definitely room for there to be more top-level players of MKX), but, the kid is the definition of prodigy.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
CrimsonShadow said:
I mean, he won his first MK9 major at 15 years old in his first competitive game. And he did it mostly playing the characters he wanted to play. Others have worked their whole careers not to even get close.

It doesn't mean that others can't continue to improve and get better (and there's definitely room for there to be more top-level players of MKX), but, the kid is the definition of prodigy.
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Yeah and his brother has a history with fighting games so of course he's going to have someone there to help him get good at them and end up being pretty good pretty quickly. He didn't just magically get good at fighting games. This "prodigy" thing is just another way to overinflate things, he's a normal person who got good at fighting games by doing what anyone who gets good at anything does: he learned and he practiced. Him being 15 shouldn't make it some sort of huge deal, Dragon also burst on the scene with Tanya and he was pretty young. Age has nothing to do with it, it's how you approach the game.
 
God Confirm

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
what a lot of you miss is that on top of everything else, he's got razor sharp focus when he plays, that the average player and even very good mechanically players even at a very high level cannot match

when he plays his mind is giving him all the right information and anything less than important is filtered, watch him and you'll see it


his talent is rare and that's why he can do amazingly in basically every game he plays, he works hard and has a great amount of skill
 
ChoseDeath

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
Youphemism said:
Yeah and his brother has a history with fighting games so of course he's going to have someone there to help him get good at them and end up being pretty good pretty quickly. He didn't just magically get good at fighting games. This "prodigy" thing is just another way to overinflate things, he's a normal person who got good at fighting games by doing what anyone who gets good at anything does: he learned and he practiced. Him being 15 shouldn't make it some sort of huge deal, Dragon also burst on the scene with Tanya and he was pretty young. Age has nothing to do with it, it's how you approach the game.
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Do you not believe in prodigies at all, or are you just saying Sonic isn't one?
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Youphemism said:
Yeah and his brother has a history with fighting games so of course he's going to have someone there to help him get good at them and end up being pretty good pretty quickly. He didn't just magically get good at fighting games. This "prodigy" thing is just another way to overinflate things, he's a normal person who got good at fighting games by doing what anyone who gets good at anything does: he learned and he practiced. Him being 15 shouldn't make it some sort of huge deal, Dragon also burst on the scene with Tanya and he was pretty young. Age has nothing to do with it, it's how you approach the game.
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All prodigies learn and practice, but not everyone is going to get to the level he reached in a couple of years.

Being a prodigy doesn't mean that you don't practice -- it means you take naturally to things and reach high levels much quicker than the average person, starting at a younger age.

He also wasn't playing Kabal, so the Tanya comparisons aren't the best. He was playing 90% Mileena and a bit of Sonya. Sonya, although good, wasn't exactly winning majors (or even making Top 3 most of the time), and Mileena had long dropped off the radar screen completely.

And meanwhile, he was picking up multiple other games, and started showing up and placing in them too. While the people who were competiting against him were struggling against him in the 1 fighting game they exclusively played.

The kid's talent can't be denied.
 
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juicepouch

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
Youphemism said:
I disagree with that. "Naturally" not being good or being good at something is just an excuse imo and I doubt is a proven thing. Practice, dedication, study, whatever you do as long as you put time and effort into it will pay off as long as you're doing it right. Someone who's "naturally" good at something still has to practice it too.
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I'd like to weigh in on this with a quick parallel to MMA for a second. Some fighters don't punch as hard as others, that's just the way it is. Some don't take punches as hard as others. If, for example, Chael Sonnen hit as hard as a guy like Chris Weidman, he could have conceivably been champion instead of losing a fight wherein he hit the champ 300 (more or less) times over the course of 22 minutes and change before getting submitted.

In an instance like this, a guy like Chael Sonnen in my opinion has maxed out his potential in terms of practice and dedicatio as a martial artist, given that he has spent his entire waking life as a wrestler and was an Olympic alternate. However, having put in countless hours, days, years of wrestling simply wasn't enough to make him better than the very best guy, who could take all of his pressure and eat his punches without being finished.

I think something similar would apply to fighting games, if circumstances were similar enough to allow. Could I (just for example) practice MKX for 25 years training hours daily and memorize data and improve immensely? (assuming in this hypothetical world that MKX is still alive by then)? Sure. But if Sonic keeps playing and practicing (even if not as frequently) as well in that time frame, will it be enough? I don't know. Some people, I believe, are handed gifts at birth which separate them from the pack when the lights shine the brightest and the stakes are the highest. Hopefully this made enough sense to be a worthwhile comparison.

EDIT: Sorry youph if you've gotten this response like 6 times already, I didn't care to read the rest of the thread :p
 
TotteryManx

TotteryManx

cr. HP Master
There is no deep reasoning here. Sonic is simply the best MKX player right now. It's his game rather if we like it or not. He may not do so well in Injustice 2. Look at PL. Won two championships for MK9 and was an amazing D.O.A. player at one time. The waves can shift.
 
Soul Bound X

Soul Bound X

Noob
juicepouch said:
I'd like to weigh in on this with a quick parallel to MMA for a second. Some fighters don't punch as hard as others, that's just the way it is. Some don't take punches as hard as others. If, for example, Chael Sonnen hit as hard as a guy like Chris Weidman, he could have conceivably been champion instead of losing a fight wherein he hit the champ 300 (more or less) times over the course of 22 minutes and change before getting submitted.

In an instance like this, a guy like Chael Sonnen in my opinion has maxed out his potential in terms of practice and dedicatio as a martial artist, given that he has spent his entire waking life as a wrestler and was an Olympic alternate. However, having put in countless hours, days, years of wrestling simply wasn't enough to make him better than the very best guy, who could take all of his pressure and eat his punches without being finished.

I think something similar would apply to fighting games, if circumstances were similar enough to allow. Could I (just for example) practice MKX for 25 years training hours daily and memorize data and improve immensely? (assuming in this hypothetical world that MKX is still alive by then)? Sure. But if Sonic keeps playing and practicing (even if not as frequently) as well in that time frame, will it be enough? I don't know. Some people, I believe, are handed gifts at birth which separate them from the pack when the lights shine the brightest and the stakes are the highest. Hopefully this made enough sense to be a worthwhile comparison.

EDIT: Sorry youph if you've gotten this response like 6 times already, I didn't care to read the rest of the thread :p
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The parallel to this would be intelligence. iq. Some people have higher iq, just like some people have bigger muscles. But mkx is not as complex as something like chess. In chess, the skill ceiling is so high that humans can't even reach it. The chess champion, Magnus Carlson can play multiple people at chess blind folded and beat them all. Your iq doesn't get much better than this guy's. In chess you have to be this intelligent to win. Mkx has a reachable skill ceiling though. The best players will reach a point to where there is nothing more to learn. You don't need the highest iq in the world to do that. If Magnus Carlson started playing mkx and reached the skill ceiling and played sonic fox, he wouldn't win by default just because he is smarter. They would both force each other into guessing games where they would literally just have to guess to win and the winner would be determined mostly by luck. So the analogy you used doesn't really work here.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
If anything, the MKX Fatal 8 was probably the best example of this. Everyone showed up to California, had the same amount of time with the game, and he wrecked all of them.

They were all in the same place, with nothing else to do except learn MKX. And he did it faster than anyone else.

So this "Well he's a kid who just has time to study the game/meta/characters and practices better/longer than everyone else" argument needs to be officially retired. When the playing field was completely level, he was simply better than everyone else.
 
Meep8345

Meep8345

Noob
Conditioning,reacting to runs,fundamentals on spacing and counter-poking with strings instead of just d1ing after someone pokes you,etc He has really good fundamentals and is good at getting in the other players head
 
juicepouch

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
Soul Bound X said:
The parallel to this would be intelligence. iq. Some people have higher iq, just like some people have bigger muscles. But mkx is not as complex as something like chess. In chess, the skill ceiling is so high that humans can't even reach it. The chess champion, Magnus Carlson can play multiple people at chess blind folded and beat them all. Your iq doesn't get much better than this guy's. In chess you have to be this intelligent to win. Mkx has a reachable skill ceiling though. The best players will reach a point to where there is nothing more to learn. You don't need the highest iq in the world to do that. If Magnus Carlson started playing mkx and reached the skill ceiling and played sonic fox, he wouldn't win by default just because he is smarter. They would both force each other into guessing games where they would literally just have to guess to win and the winner would be determined mostly by luck. So the analogy you used doesn't really work here.
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Fair enough. I think we simply fundamentally disagree in that I don't see MKX having such a linear skill ceiling and in that matches at the highest level are dictated by guesses and luck. Interesting view, nice thread, would read again. :)
 
Soul Bound X

Soul Bound X

Noob
juicepouch said:
Fair enough. I think we simply fundamentally disagree in that I don't see MKX having such a linear skill ceiling and in that matches at the highest level are dictated by guesses and luck. Interesting view, nice thread, would read again. :)
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It's not determined by luck now because there is only one player near the ceiling. His wins are based off his knowledge of the game. But every player who was a top mk9 player will tell you that mk9 stopped evolving after a while. It got to the point where we stopped learning because there wasn't much more to learn. Perfect Legend won evo, and then the next week lost a tournament to some random sektor player that no one had ever heard of. Sektor wasn't even considered top tier btw. But CD Jr could of won that evo grand finals on another day. In fact he did beat PL not long before that. So the skill ceiling was more or less reached in that game and between the top players the winner was usually a toss up.
 
CUTWEST

CUTWEST

Where NRS scrubs cant compete
NRS games are nothing but button mashing and luck. No real ACTUAL skilled involved in those games whatsoever. =/
 
MrProfDrPepper

MrProfDrPepper

NRS, Guilty Gear, and KI, the holy trinity
I love how you act like none of the top players practice and play day and night working their asses off to try and beat him. Problem is sonic fox is getting better as they are. And he has more free time than most of them.
 
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