The Benefit of 50/50's to the Long Term Success of the MKX Community

madcityblazer · Apr 25, 2016

Either the overhead or low NEEEEEDS to be unsafe with most characters imo ...

jaythatruth · Apr 25, 2016

Being a madden tournament player, I completely disagree with the OP. There's no way the game should be dumbed down via 50/50s or what have you. People who put in hours and hours into this game shouldn't lose just off 50/50s or some other tactics that minimizes the skill gap. If you can't play as much as the "pro players" can, it sucks, I'm in that boat also. However, that's life

Salad Petresky · Apr 25, 2016

EXILE CoRzz said:
I don't care about 50/50s being in a fighting game but the fact that we can guess right and not be rewarded is the problem

Your reward is another 50/50

ILuvFightGames · Apr 25, 2016

freakwency said:
how is it an issue. it still takes skill to win thats why sonicfox wins everything because he is the best. why dont people abuse safe to 50/50s to try to beat him if they are so overpowered. he can win with kitana who has barely any mixup potential

How many tournaments has he won with Kitana?

Tom Brady · Apr 25, 2016

freakwency said:
how is it an issue. it still takes skill to win thats why sonicfox wins everything because he is the best. why dont people abuse safe to 50/50s to try to beat him if they are so overpowered. he can win with kitana who has barely any mixup potential

Sonic fox is the best OFFENSIVE player we have. His offense is also not just limited to 50/50s, his overall offense of any kind is very VERY strong. But, he is not an idiot and he can defend. Is he the best defensive or patient player we have? Certainly not.. He can also zone but he is not our best zoner. He is smart so he can pick a character like Kitana in certain matches and display his ability to also zone and come out on top.

Fox is very good with the turn based offense vs offense that MKX offers. When its your turn he can certainly block and find a way to make it his turn and overpower you. The thing is that the game stacks the deck heavily in favor of offense. Defense is more then blocking a 50/50, in fact that's more guessing than defense. Keep away, patience, spacing, the ability to AA, counter poking, zoning, etc are all forms of defense and most of those areas are no where near as powerful as the offense in MKX. Players who rely heavily on their defensive abilities find themselves in positions where the match becomes more offensive.

Id love to have his offense vs a great defensive player in a game where both offense and defense are equal. Thats much more hype then what we have now.

Eldriken · Apr 25, 2016

LaidbackOne said:
Yeah, because we should be happy that MKX is based on uber guessing skills.

I don't think "guessing" and "skills" should be in the same sentence. Skills are often something you can improve upon, whereas you can't get better at guessing, just lucky.

But either way, I still agree with you.

To clarify further about getting better at guessing: I think the only way you can get "better" at it is if you notice patterns from your opponent. If they don't deviate from these patterns during the guessing game when it's their turn, then sure, I suppose that's getting "better".

LaidbackOne · Apr 25, 2016

Eldriken said:
I don't think "guessing" and "skills" should be in the same sentence. Skills are often something you can improve upon, whereas you can't get better at guessing, just lucky.

But either way, I still agree with you.

To clarify further about getting better at guessing: I think the only way you can get "better" at it is if you notice patterns from your opponent. If they don't deviate from these patterns during the guessing game when it's their turn, then sure, I suppose that's getting "better".

I thought "uber guessing skills" is nothing to take seriously. Never really said guessing is a skill which you can improve.

Goat-City · Apr 25, 2016

Alarmingly Fast Skeleton said:
My agreement with you hinges on these two points. As for buffing zoning, I also agree. I'm not sure if stamina drain is necessary to accomplish this though. Because while zoning in MKX is nowhere near as good as it was in MK9, there are still plenty of characters more than capable of keeping you full screen.

True, I main Quan and have a lot of success with zoning, but there are always moments when someone yolo runs in and jump punches me just as I'm about to do a far rune or a skull, basically costing me all the damage I dealt with my zoning over the last 20 seconds on good reads and spacing. I like the run feature, but the problem is that not enough things cost stamina as a resource for it to be balanced in the context of zoning being a play style.

I thought about the idea of making runs cost twice the amount of stamina they currently do, but that would create issues with a lot of combos since running is required for them, and it wouldn't make much of a difference because anyone could still run in from full screen or yolo EX launching teleport with the risk/reward in their favor. But if projectiles drained stamina and reversals costed stamina, then that would majorly help zoning and eliminate some of the guessing in the gameplay.

So as long as your opponent has less than half stamina you wouldn't have to worry about yolo EX launching teleports or Shinnok's EX scoop, and you could reasonably force them to go below half stamina by hitting them with projectiles. There would be fewer instant air Kano balls or full screen slides to get in for free. And like I said, it would create scenarios in the neutral where random unsafe armor attempts would be non-factors, making it less of a high risk high reward guessing game and more of a calculated low risk low reward poking war trying to get frame advantage.

And they could finally make breakers cost less than full stamina. At the moment they need to cost that much because it's supposed to be a counter balance to the run feature, but if they created other, more effective counter balances to it like with what I'm suggesting, then having breakers still cost full stamina would be excessive and a problem. Maybe they could even decrease the amount of stamina back dashes cost. Granted, some characters like Quan would have to get their 50/50s and general offensive capabilities nerfed to compensate, but that's a good thing.

Eddy Wang · Apr 25, 2016

The game needs to have some more solid defense maneuvers, i will keep saying until someone hears it:
- In order to make jump ins less powerful, make them more punishable on whiff, right now its not enough, minus when blocked, even if its a punch, NJP or NJK, or increase startup of air normals a bit since they're stupid good.
- In order to reduce advancing oh/low strings, make them cover less distance
- give us more invincibility frames on backdashes, or give us less recovery on them with more distance coverage speed, there is no point in risking avoiding shit with the ass backdash we have now for 1 bar and still getting punished by it.
- D1s should be stuffed by standing normals, the poking game of MKX is awful
- The blockstop is ass, there is no need to block a move for 99 frames when my turn was already 99 frames ago.
- Input storage is way too big, i keep getting hat tosses or hat traps, when i want a F2, teleports when i want a B3(scorpion), who knows what else when coming out of block to punish unsafe moves, this is working together with the bock stop
- Mixup heavy characters should have one option punishable out of 2, and 3 out of 4
- While at it, fix the damn bug that makes characters float low when they're launched crouching.

NRS if you need assistance, just say the word

next game, better not bring breathing hitboxes as well, this must be the last game with this.

The game favors more people that can just press buttons, specially with superman like f23 strings, aquaman disjointed hitboxes, poke all day and stay safe at the end of the day.

I mean, the ruling of poking in MK to reverse pressure was ditched and is more now like SF, only that in MK its poorly executed since it can avoid mostly anything even when its not their turn.

Kinetic Predator · Apr 25, 2016

I love playing against characters like CT Kano where I have to guess right 3 times in a row and he gets a 50% 1 bar for guessing right.

wow damn I got outplayed I guessed wrong twice.

Crusty · Apr 25, 2016

Kinetic Predator said:
I love playing against characters like CT Kano where I have to guess right 3 times in a row and he gets a 50% 1 bar for guessing right. wow damn I got outplayed I guessed wrong twice.

I pray that was complete sarcasm

usedcarsalesmang · Apr 25, 2016

i think mainstream fighters that have strong defense are dead.
just get used to it

Kinetic Predator · Apr 25, 2016

Crusty Clown said:
I pray that was complete sarcasm

come on man lol

Goat-City · Apr 25, 2016

Eddy Wang said:
The game needs to have some more solid defense maneuvers, i will keep saying until someone hears it:
- In order to make jump ins less powerful, make them more punishable on whiff, right now its not enough, minus when blocked, even if its a punch, NJP or NJK, or increase startup of air normals a bit since they're stupid good.
- In order to reduce advancing oh/low strings, make them cover less distance
- give us more invincibility frames on backdashes, or give us less recovery on them with more distance coverage speed, there is no point in risking avoiding shit with the ass backdash we have now for 1 bar and still getting punished by it.
- D1s should be stuffed by standing normals, the poking game of MKX is awful
- The blockstop is ass, there is no need to block a move for 99 frames when my turn was already 99 frames ago.
- Input storage is way too big, i keep getting hat tosses or hat traps, when i want a F2, teleports when i want a B3(scorpion), who knows what else when coming out of block to punish unsafe moves, this is working together with the bock stop
- Mixup heavy characters should have one option punishable out of 2, and 3 out of 4
- While at it, fix the damn bug that makes characters float low when they're launched crouching.

NRS if you need assistance, just say the word

next game, better not bring breathing hitboxes as well, this must be the last game with this.

The game favors more people that can just press buttons, specially with superman like f23 strings, aquaman disjointed hitboxes, poke all day and stay safe at the end of the day.

I mean, the ruling of poking in MK to reverse pressure was ditched and is more now like SF, only that in MK its poorly executed since it can avoid mostly anything even when its not their turn.

Can you elaborate on what makes the poking game awful, why poking is more like Street Fighter now, and why d1s should be stuffed by standing normals?

Eldriken · Apr 25, 2016

Crusty Clown said:
I pray that was complete sarcasm

Really, Crusty? It was absolutely oozing sarcasm.

Crusty · Apr 25, 2016

Eldriken said:
Really, Crusty? It was absolutely oozing sarcasm.

The price of being sick for an entire week (still am) is the cost of my ability to tell sarcasm apart from seriousness.

just_2swift · Apr 25, 2016

MK(coin flip)XL smh 50/50s are for casual ppl. How much you want to bet if this game wasn't riddled with them they would be forced to think and play fundamentally half of these ppl would quit man it's no secret. No matter how you put it 50/50s in mk is aids.

Matix218 · Apr 25, 2016

FROST_ said:
I agree with Brady tbh. What happened to the zoning? Spacing? Staggers? Footsies? I can tell you what happened to them. Threads like this is what happened. 50/50s that are safe killed this game. Every character has atleast 2 options to keep his or her 50/50s safe. I want to be able to zone people out because that's my play style to sit back and be patient and let you make a mistake and punish accordingly. But in mk9 zoning characters like kenshi, Kabal, noob, kitana made the "casual" players mad and scream "spam" all over TYM threads. While characters like smoke, scorpion, rain, Cyrax, sektor, quan, mileena had excellent counter zoning tools. Even mk9 had the mkx Rushdown style with characters like Sonya, reptile, jax, skarlet, Johnny.. Spacing by all those characters zone based or pressure based needs great spacing to be successful still. For example as a noob saibot main I couldn't just throw out shadow slides all day they were -40 with A LOT of recovery, same with shadow tackle. I had to SPACE my shadow up knee to have a great anti air presence and also pressure presence. Even the black holes needed to be spaced properly. Stagger strings like b1, f3(3)(3), 12, b2, I needed for pressure up close. As to be good in mk9 you had have a good balance in zoning, pressure. In mkx you have no zoning. Your just running for a SAFE 50/50 which is complete bullshit. Tbh if your saying 50/50s are needed I'd hate to see how you played in mk9, sf5, tekken, doalr, Skullgirls. The casual player doesn't need skill to win now. All they need is a SAFE or PLUS 50/50 and for you to guess wrong 2 times to win. But that's my rant I'll leave it up for discussion now.

You mained Noob in MK9? That's badass. It was so hard to play that character well. The best Noobs I saw were D.R. and Madzin and it was such a hype character, especially once they got the corner combos going! I used him too but as a secondary.

Eddy Wang · Apr 25, 2016

Goat-City said:
Can you elaborate on what makes the poking game awful, why poking is more like Street Fighter now, and why d1s should be stuffed by standing normals?

The poking (d1) game is awful because it goes under anything, players with no sense of repercussions or turn game, will start their offense with a tool that was supposed to be used to reverse pressure so they can start their own.

Instead, d1 is used because its the fastest button that low profiles anything, and if blocked not only is safe but you're likely to gain another one if you mash a second one, going under someone that "knows you're going to mash" and is trying to get a better reward by answering your mashing with a string.

As result it goes under his string and the person that was -7 becomes plus and is able to start their offense despite being minus, so instead people are forced to answer d1's with d1's instead of better rewards like a string to those trying to mash d1s to gain offense, and instead of staggers and more creativity on ways to open people up, you end up having players d1 each other out through the course of a match, which is awful.

Nexallus · Apr 25, 2016

Eddy Wang said:
The poking (d1) game is awful because it goes under anything, players with no sense of repercussions or turn game, will start their offense with a tool that was supposed to be used to reverse pressure so they can start their own.

Instead, d1 is used because its the fastest button that low profiles anything, and if blocked not only is safe but you're likely to gain another one if you mash a second one, going under someone that "knows you're going to mash" and is trying to get a better reward by answering your mashing with a string.

As result it goes under his string and the person that was -7 becomes plus and is able to start their offense despite being minus, so instead people are forced to answer d1's with d1's instead of better rewards like a string to those trying to mash d1s to gain offense, and instead of staggers and more creativity on ways to open people up, you end up having players d1 each other out through the course of a match, which is awful.

Sorry if I misunderstand, but isn't the whole point of landing a D1 for starting your own pressure or rather "gaining a turn" for lack of a better phrase? I just feel like if all characters' D1 could get stuffed with standing normals, it could cause a lot of balance problems.

Pig Of The Hut · Apr 25, 2016

The OP had me like

No

Goat-City · Apr 25, 2016

Eddy Wang said:
The poking (d1) game is awful because it goes under anything, players with no sense of repercussions or turn game, will start their offense with a tool that was supposed to be used to reverse pressure so they can start their own.

Instead, d1 is used because its the fastest button that low profiles anything, and if blocked not only is safe but you're likely to gain another one if you mash a second one, going under someone that "knows you're going to mash" and is trying to get a better reward by answering your mashing with a string.

As result it goes under his string and the person that was -7 becomes plus and is able to start their offense despite being minus, so instead people are forced to answer d1's with d1's instead of better rewards like a string to those trying to mash d1s to gain offense, and instead of staggers and more creativity on ways to open people up, you end up having players d1 each other out through the course of a match, which is awful.

How were they different in MK9? Did d1s get stuffed by highs in that game? I see your point, but the fact that d1s are crouching attacks makes that seem like a weird solution to mashing even if they hit mid instead of low. Maybe they should be less plus on hit instead, like how Quan's d1 is only plus 3 on hit? That way you couldn't use them to start any guaranteed offense usually unless you're Shinnok with a 7 frame low. That or they could be more minus on block like -10 with more recovery, but again, with a really fast mid or low like Shinnok has that could be overpowering for some characters.

EMPEROR_KNICKS · Apr 25, 2016

Bizzle PB said:
Over the past year there has been a lot of talk of how 50/50's ruin the game and that guessing right or wrong should not be a part of the equation in winning or losing. Why I do understand the frustration when you are about to win a match that puts you in top 8, only to be stopped by guessing wrong 3 times consecutively against random noob, I do have a big positive that we need to pay attention to.

As we look forward to community growth and MKX and all fighting games to emerge out of the ESports dungeon, we need to pay attention to the biggest part of the growth. The casual player. The casual player is the person who will fuel the growth. Without the casual player, there is no pro player. Every pro player started out as a casual player. That cannot be forgotten.

Lets take a look at the casual player. What does this casual player want? This casual player wants to be able to compete against the worlds best players and maybe win once in a while. The casual player believes they can win because they are the best in their neighborhood, school, or local scene. Now, they may be good, but is he good enough to beat the best players in the world? The answer is maybe. And the main reason for even a maybe is the inclusion of 50/50's in the game. With the inclusion of 50/50's he has the opportunity to get lucky 3 times in a row and eliminate the pro player from an event. This gives the casual player a glimmer of hope in an otherwise futile struggle to be a contender. The glimmer of hope is witnessed by their friends, the stream viewers, and the other casual players.

As these "weekend warriors" become more confident, they decide to take it to the next level and attend the next regional in their area. Now he is bringing his game to the big time. Is he outclassed? Yes. Does he have a chance to eliminate you from the tournament? He sure does! If he can string together some of those 50/50's he has a chance to get out of pools or better! The thing is, that luck will eventually catch up with them and they will guess wrong 50% of the time like he is supposed to. When this happens, they are handled easily by the pro player and they are returned home to work on their game with a new found passion.

This player, at some point, may have knocked us out of the tournament, but it was a good thing overall for all pro players long term. You see, the more times the casual player sees a glimmer of hope, guessing right of 50/50's, the more likely he is to return to challenge you again. The ultimate beauty of it is, though, that if you win just half, or even close to half, of your 50/50's, you will most likely beat the weekend warrior each and every set.

I know this does no good in helping you understand why some random opponent sent you packing at CEO, but if you look at the big picture you will get it. The larger the number of entrants for each of the events, the larger the prize pools. The larger the events, the more exposure for the pro players. The increase in exposure for the pro leads to sponsorship opportunities and other sources of income.

So the next time you get beat by some random that guessed right 14 times in a row, make note that 50/50's are good for the community and that he will be back again. Maybe without a horseshoe up his A#@.

Wow.

A F0xy Grampa · Apr 25, 2016

Arent these the words of Tom Brady?

Dinosaur · Apr 25, 2016

Landonio said:
...is this a real topic.

that was my original reaction, but when you start to read into the breakdown of how 50/50's can alter game meta you have to question they're place in a fighting game, no different then questioning projectiles or AA'S/jumping

The Benefit of 50/50's to the Long Term Success of the MKX Community

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