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Discussion - "Shut up and get better"

So, the argument that must be made at this point is what constitutes skill in the first place. There is much more to the game than an untrained glance would suggest. There is of course the execution barrier, one that separates those who can perform proper combos, frame traps, and setups from those who can't, and even those who can perform basic game functions from those who can't, in the case of less-experienced players. There is the character knowledge barrier, which separates those who understand well their characters' tools and options better than those who don't, along with the related matchup knowledge barrier, which favors those who are more knowledgable about certain matchups. Similar to games like Brawl and the 3D fighters, there is the stage knowledge barrier, which favors those who understand how their characters are affected by certain stages.

HOWEVER, there are also metagame skill barriers which must be acknowledged. Certain characters are better than others, which is true in every single fighting game. Certain characters beat other characters on a skill cap level with varying degrees of certainty. What this means is that part of being skilled is making effective choices! This means choosing the good characters, the counterpick stages. This is part of leveling up, part of adapting! You cannot deny that part of the strategy in any fighting game is the little game that takes place on the character select screen, the one in which you try to pick the character most likely to beat your opponent. Now, we're not all perfectly skilled with every character, which is where the human factor steps in, but it only serves to reinforce the point that refusing to adapt by choosing better characters is denying growth in one of the key strategic elements of the game.
 

DJ L Toro

Champion
Yes you would... the only thing that matters at the end of the day is who wins and who loses. Adapting is anything that stops you from losing and helps you win. Sup limiting yourself at the character select screen. PLAY TO WIN
so you're saying that every single match in every single game should be mirrors between the best character in the game?
the "best character" doesnt suit everyone best. Somehow i doubt that if 16 bit played kabal that he would be as successful as he has been. adapting means giving yourself the best chance to win, true, but in order to do that you must understand what kind of player you are and what tools contribute to your success as a player. that does not mean automatically picking top tier even if their tools dont match yours.
Also, even if everything you have said is true, it does not preclude the fact that people can still find dysfunctional (not going to use broken because of the coloquial meaning to it) elements of a game that they wish to bring to light. the "it's not a glitch, it's a feature" mindset is counterproductive to games that are still in production (patches, dlc, etc are developers finishing a game after release, therefore production) like injustice. You might think your advice would help people realize that the goal is to win, but the way you advocate for it is disastrous for the game itself.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
It doesn't get much more competitive than MMA, Boxing or Hockey... At the end of all the events.. They end in hugs or handshakes.. IN THE END.......
In those events people also don't try to discredit your wins by calling it overpowered.itive does not give an open ended license to be a fucking prick and then hide behind the "competitive" tag
in those events, people don't try to discredit your wins because it was overpowered... telling you to level up is a defense mechanism for players that work really hard just to be discredited
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
so you're saying that every single match in every single game should be mirrors between the best character in the game?
the "best character" doesnt suit everyone best. Somehow i doubt that if 16 bit played kabal that he would be as successful as he has been. adapting means giving yourself the best chance to win, true, but in order to do that you must understand what kind of player you are and what tools contribute to your success as a player. that does not mean automatically picking top tier even if their tools dont match yours.
Also, even if everything you have said is true, it does not preclude the fact that people can still find dysfunctional (not going to use broken because of the coloquial meaning to it) elements of a game that they wish to bring to light. the "it's not a glitch, it's a feature" mindset is counterproductive to games that are still in production (patches, dlc, etc are developers finishing a game after release, therefore production) like injustice. You might think your advice would help people realize that the goal is to win, but the way you advocate for it is disastrous for the game itself.
Read my other posts. I address all of this. Playing to win would be picking the character that gives you the best chance to win, normally a mixture of your skills with the characters viability.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
in those events, people don't try to discredit your wins because it was overpowered... telling you to level up is a defense mechanism for players that work really hard just to be discredited
You better believe that during said events things are being said about families, wives, body, background.. Anything under the sun.. DURING the competition.. And even though the loser may be angry and the winner may feel exuberant... It ends with a hug and handshake.

You are correct about discrediting being an excuse out of defense mechanism.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Man.... this wasn't supposed to be a thread about interactables :oops:

Okay, a Cage player is bodying a Cyrax all match, but then the Cyrax throws out a random hail mary net and wins with a reset. Cyrax player then tells the Cage player to "get better."

I didn't want that example to be thrown out of proportion... we've talk ad nauseum about interactables... I just wanted to call out the hippocrisy of someone telling another player to "get better" when they themselves aren't doing anything of particular skill to win...

(I'm trying to find the right words. I really am XD)
Lol well you say you didn't want it to go into interactables, but they are probably the #1 cause of where your topic starts from.

Dizzy vs 16 Bit. The way the fight played out, tell me if that match was on ANY other stage Bit wouldn't have won. Even Dizzy said it himself. If I would've lost that match I'd be saltier than my profile pic. Now imagine if Bit would've complained and Dizzy goes, "shut up and get better".

Lol wut?

Sometimes when you lose you can learn from it and look at things you need to work on. When I got my ass brokebacked by Mr. Mileena I reflected on it and instantly started working on things to try and get better. Other times you can lose knowing you'd beat that person 90% of the time on 90% of the other stages. I don't see anything I can learn from being outvoted to rooftop and taking robots to the face other than do my best to get Sinestro to my Raven/Frost level for 2 stages.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
You better believe that during said events things are being said about families, wives, body, background.. Anything under the sun.. DURING the competition.. And even though the loser may be angry and the winner may feel exuberant... It ends with a hug and handshake.

You are correct about discrediting being an excuse out of defense mechanism.
I have no problem with trash talk. Just discrediting somebody for their skills to make yourself look better.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Your case is extreme, and I have no idea how they allowed that to happen. Lol. But that's how I feel too.

I'll say it every day. I feel like I lose matches at times in this game against lesser skilled players because of the stage. Not scrubs, but guys who wouldn't have won if not for ridiculous hit box high damage objects.

A better way of saying it is this. If there are 30+ areas of stages, and a guy I've played a hundred times in a month in a Frost vs Black Adam MU, can go 50/50 with me on 2 stages in the game, and loses 8/10 on the other 30, then he is not better than me. Yet if we play 2 outta 3 and he gets his crappy rooftop voted he can go to the next round and pass me??

That's that bologna. I'm working on bringing my Sinestro up but the guys i play are too good to bring him out yet. The only thing to learn from this is that this game demands you play a power char as a back up. Which I'm doing now, but still, still. Lol
Yes it does, i have batman as the gadged character and Aquaman as the power Character to cover it up, besides batman's trait sets up his pressure a lot, can be used to make blockstrings safe and still be able to backdash or parry.

But i would love to play as a high level green Arrow, he is the only character that forces me to stay focused and play really smart, is just that i found him way harder to use, tool wise against some chars, yesterday for example, i got outzoned by green lantern a lot, and lost matches against nightwing because his decent damage doesn't has the best setups.

I'm sure, that if don't sell this game, and keep maining him, at some point i will be able to use him at the same level i use Skarlet. Its really fun to play with him, i just don't understand him at all.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
discrediting somebody for their skills to make yourself look better.
Is done by little boys, with little dicks, who need to learn manners, respect and humility.

Acceptable from a 3 year old and a 3 yr old only.

Speaking of 3 year olds.. What you teach them as a come back still sticks to these poor sports.. "Get a Life"
 

DJ L Toro

Champion
Read my other posts. I address all of this. Playing to win would be picking the character that gives you the best chance to win, normally a mixture of your skills with the characters viability.
no, you didnt address the important part and the purpose of this thread:
Also, even if everything you have said is true, it does not preclude the fact that people can still find dysfunctional (not going to use broken because of the coloquial meaning to it) elements of a game that they wish to bring to light. the "it's not a glitch, it's a feature" mindset is counterproductive to games that are still in production (patches, dlc, etc are developers finishing a game after release, therefore production) like injustice. You might think your advice would help people realize that the goal is to win, but the way you advocate for it is disastrous for the game itself.
If out the bat you cannot use half of the characters in the game, there is a problem that should be discussed and addressed. If there are in game control issues that are not player-based, there's a problem. If a character has gamebreaking tools, glitches, or infinites there's a problem. If any gimmick is completely unavoidable to where one character or player is guaranteed to have an advantage that is not determined by skill, there is a problem. Yes, you should give yourself the best chance of winning, but if your drive to win means you silence discourse on the issues of a game because "shut up and get better" then you are harmful to the game/community in the long run.
 
D

Deleted member 9158

Guest
You know what's the dirtiest use of interactables?

Purposely positioning Grundy's trait ender so he's standing under or next to an interactable.

I rarely miss, it's so cheap.
 

xWEBSx

Too old for this Shit
You know what's the dirtiest use of interactables?

Purposely positioning Grundy's trait ender so he's standing under or next to an interactable.

I rarely miss, it's so cheap.
You call it cheap.. I call that strategy.. If there is grass on the field.. Play ball brother.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Yes it does, i have batman as the gadged character and Aquaman as the power Character to cover it up, besides batman's trait sets up his pressure a lot, can be used to make blockstrings safe and still be able to backdash or parry.

But i would love to play as a high level green Arrow, he is the only character that forces me to stay focused and play really smart, is just that i found him way harder to use, tool wise against some chars, yesterday for example, i got outzoned by green lantern a lot, and lost matches against nightwing because his decent damage doesn't has the best setups.

I'm sure, that if don't sell this game, and keep maining him, at some point i will be able to use him at the same level i use Skarlet. Its really fun to play with him, i just don't understand him at all.
That's a nice duo. I tried GA too in the beginning but he just didn't click for me. You gotta tell NRS to throw in that Skarlet dlc with the 2nd batch!
 

MorbidAltruism

Get over here!
And you shouldn't... It is a fighting game.. One should never feel bad about an action they do to he competition.
Even cheating after stabbing someone and stealing their wallet. I mean even in the spirit of competition I would feel a little bad. :p