Opinions on which characters are not top 8 viable in the current meta-game?

[xInfra Deadx]

Harley sucks, Bane sucks, and Flash sucks. Hell, Lobo is more viable than those 3.

 

[SaJa]

I put Flash at the Shazam level. They both good and in another hand fucked up. I like it.

 

[Jaku2011]

Poor Lobo you're the only cool DLC character why do you suck so bad?

 

[Pakman]

As a follow up to the Original Post:

1) Do the not viable characters "work" as is (and thus the reason they aren't viable is because of inherent weaknesses in their design) or doesn't they (and thus the not viable characters need improvements in some areas)

2) If the answer is they don't work: What changes (if any) do they need to make them work?

I'm asking from a play style design perspective and also from a player perspective, in the express interest of a better game overall (with as many solid characters that "work" as possible)

EDIT: apologies for the minor hi-jack of your thread, Spyridon.

 

[Killzone]

This is playing to win. Not "look at how good I am with a bottom tier". You may not like it but that's just how it is. And this is coming from someone who mained Subzero in MK9.

Are you adressing me?

I never said otherwise, just that it's hard to determine characters WHO CAN'T MAKE THE TOP 8. Drug Chris G, make nude pictures of him and threaten him to post them everywhere on the internet, if he doesn't pick up Bane and you will see Bane in the next TOP 8.
Because Chris G is Chris G? No, but simply because he is a one of the great players who do pick up low tier characters sometimes and make them work.
Bane is probably not terrible, just under-used so that it's hard to figure out the right strategies.

 

[doomfarmer]

I wanna say add Flash to that list but Legend just recently got top 8 at WNF using some of him. But still I think Flash atm needs help. I don't think a "Flash only" user will get top 8 anywhere.

Can't not include Flash in this. Remember when Fab got 3rd with Lex a couple weeks ago? People are still saying Lex needs help. Flash for SURE needs help. I assume not many people mentioned him because he's so forgettable.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Poor Lobo you're the only cool DLC character why do you suck so bad?

because he was rushed probably

 

[Qwark28]

Are you adressing me?

I never said otherwise, just that it's hard to determine characters WHO CAN'T MAKE THE TOP 8. Drug Chris G, make nude pictures of him and threaten him to post them everywhere on the internet, if he doesn't pick up Bane and you will see Bane in the next TOP 8.
Because Chris G is Chris G? No, but simply because he is a one of the great players who do pick up low tier characters sometimes and make them work.
Bane is probably not terrible, just under-used so that it's hard to figure out the right strategies.

Can't make top 8? Please. Not viable means there is a way less chance of them making top 8. I don't give a fuck who picks up one of the worst chars, they will not make top 8 just with that character unless they're playing scrubs or are really lucky and VS fellow low tier chars/the top players make lotsa mistakes.

 

[Killzone]

Can't make top 8? Please. Not viable means there is a way less chance of them making top 8. I don't give a fuck who picks up one of the worst chars, they will not make top 8 just with that character unless they're playing scrubs or are really lucky and VS fellow low tier chars/the top players make lotsa mistakes.

All of that can be said for high tier characters as well.
Playing Black Adam does not automatically give you the victory. Do you have an easier game? Yes, most likely, because he has his amazing options. And then if you place high (which you did), do you automatically have the right to downgrade a character like Harley Quinn, who could have a lot of potential, but you simply never invested time to learn her and her match ups? IMO the answer is: No.

 

[xWEBSx]

This is playing to win. Not "look at how good I am with a bottom tier". You may not like it but that's just how it is. And this is coming from someone who mained Subzero in MK9.

That being said.. Doesn't this hone a bullseye in on those said characters for NRS to bump them up? As far as I'm concerned, it is crystal clear who needs help in this game.. Why does it appear muddled to the dev's (only saying that from the track record of "fixes" they have ushered in thus far.)

 

[SaJa]

I just watch every IGAU events and there is still a bunch of characters I've not even seen once since the game has been released.

Too bad Chris G didn't pick up Flash..

 

[DuBBer Kiir]

I think very hard AI should be allowed to enter tournaments lol

 

[Qwark28]

That being said.. Doesn't this hone a bullseye in on those said characters for NRS to bump them up? As far as I'm concerned, it is crystal clear who needs help in this game.. Why does it appear muddled to the dev's (only saying that from the track record of "fixes" they have ushered in thus far.)

Because that's what killed MK9. They to stop the patches and let the game evolve.

 

[Spyridon]

First off I just want to say I'm really happy with all the responses this topic is getting, thanks everyone!

The reason it doesn't boost him up THAT high is just because he has an issue with heavy zoners. And Superman's trait makes his completely useless. NRS DC fanboys had to make it so Superman's trait kills his villains.

So it seems you probably have the most experience with Lex of all the players who responded so far, I'd like to ask you, what would your opinion be on Lex? Does he belong on this list?

Also, OP I have no idea why you have Doomsday in there as if its debatable. DD has already placed in top 8's, is used by a few pro players, and is regarded high by the pros and on tier list.

He used to be, but after the recent patches, I haven't seen him participating in higher levels of tournaments. All along many pro players had said he was mostly gimmicks and he will have trouble once people figure him out, and finally many pros lately have said he's a pretty bad character now. The question is, is he so bad that he can't make top 8 anymore?

Surprised no one has mentioned flash yet.




What have you heard of flash doing well anywhere? Lol

Actually on Legend's stream the other night he was talking about how Flash may be viable now, due to a ninja buff of his (charge move that he torpedos across the screen? Don't know the name). You can now burn it on block, which leaves Flash at an advantageous position.

So Flash seems to be moving up now, just not sure how far. Although I think I'll add Flash to the debated list!

Can't not include Flash in this. Remember when Fab got 3rd with Lex a couple weeks ago? People are still saying Lex needs help. Flash for SURE needs help. I assume not many people mentioned him because he's so forgettable.

See my above response, Flash may be changing at the moment, but I will add him to the list of debated.

TLDR: The nerfs on Doomsday, in conjunction with his weaknesses from before, now add up to a pretty mediocre character.

Now I don't think that it will take a lot to make him a viable top 8 character, and a few tweaks would go a long way. But suggesting Doomsday buffs is a whole new topic and I've bored you guys long enough already.

No you didn't bore me, thanks a lot for the detailed response! You bring some clarity to those wondering why he is on the debated list!

EDIT: apologies for the minor hi-jack of your thread, Spyridon.

Feel free! It is good discussion and would be great feedback for NRS if they end up reading this thread.

Welcome to TYM, Spyridon and what a great first post.

And to answer your post from my genius level intelligence perspective:
I don't think that there are that many characters, who could never get into the top 8, mainly because some of the lesser used characters don't have a high level player backing them up.
Some people consider Lobo as not really viable, but look how far NY Fab made it with that character and he only lost in the losers finals of a big, big, big local tournament, because he was doing something very wrong during a match and Tom Brady schooled him afterwards (can't remember what his mistake in that match up was though).
Or Green Arrow who is supposed to be a mid tier character, yet Chris G makes him still look cheap, simply by showing great reads / decisions / fundamentals.

Thanks for the kind words!

In response to the rest of your post, that's why I've listed this as a discussion on the current meta-game.

With Green Arrow, being played by ChrisG, he's being shown as a character that can consistently make top 8, because ChrisG has developed him to that point. Compared to someone like Bane, you can see a clear difference in viability. Now may ChrisG be able to do the same with Bane? Possibly, but that's not the current status of the meta-game. Noone has made it there with Bane yet.

Also Lobo (and Doomsday to a point) brings up another important note. Some characters may become viable only for a certain meta-game, and unfamiliarity might let them get very far in tournaments. But once players start figuring a character out, they may become less viable over time. This is yet another reason this topic is focused on the current meta-game.

Finally, there's also the issue of counter-picks. Counter-picks, too, may make a character viable in a specific meta-game. Let's say Scorpion really does catch on as a top character. You can bet that characters like Aquaman, who make the Scorpion matchup hell (pun intended) would move up. Now I know Aquaman is already a very viable character, but being a counter pick to other top characters immediately makes one viable. Who knows if people are going to discover tech that makes, for example, Joker a counter pick to Black Adam. That would immediately make them viable in the current meta-game, even though they may not be a top 8 pick outside of counter picks.

So try to keep these three things in mind with your responses plz. I will probably edit the original post to reflect these 3 notes later on.

if he doesn't pick up Bane and you will see Bane in the next TOP 8.
Because Chris G is Chris G? No, but simply because he is a one of the great players who do pick up low tier characters sometimes and make them work.



Bane is probably not terrible, just under-used so that it's hard to figure out the right strategies.

Please read my response to the quote just above yours. This is precisely why this discussion is focused on the current meta-game. Things change in fighting games! Hopefully this topic will help things out, by challenging players of the characters on this list to try to make top 8, having a list of characters that need to have tech developed, and having good feedback for the developers for who needs help & what type of buffs may be best for them!

That being said.. Doesn't this hone a bullseye in on those said characters for NRS to bump them up? As far as I'm concerned, it is crystal clear who needs help in this game.. Why does it appear muddled to the dev's (only saying that from the track record of "fixes" they have ushered in thus far.)

Game development (and balancing) is complicated. We don't know what other changes they have planned down the line that might affect balance decisions.

Also, they are hesitant to balance change any of the lower played characters, due to lack of statistics. Sometimes underplayed characters aren't weak, just underplayed.

 

[xWEBSx]

Because that's what killed MK9. They to stop the patches and let the game evolve.

Understood.. However can you honestly say as the game stands now that the low tier cast will get any better with evolution and no help to make them viable? Will some crazy Bane tech make him super viable against Superman? Even with Bane getting the help he has so far- all evidence points to him still having very bad MU's and many more uphill battles. I am not saying put Bane and Harley and the Joker through the roof with buffs, making them BETTER than Supes or BA, but more tools and at least some formidable assistance to give those mainers something to work with.

Spyridon

Understood as well.. However in today's society with secrecy, social media teases/trolls it is hard to put faith that anything coming down the pipe is thought out and planned, and not a knee jerk reaction due to public outcry....

 

[Spyridon]

Understood.. However can you honestly say as the game stands now that the low tier cast will get any better with evolution and no help to make them viable? Will some crazy Bane tech make him super viable against Superman? Even with Bane getting the help he has so far- all evidence points to him still having very bad MU's and many more uphill battles. I am not saying put Bane and Harley and the Joker through the roof with buffs, making them BETTER than Supes or BA, but more tools and at least some formidable assistance to give those mainers something to work with.

All I'll say to this is, don't underestimate what tech can do for a character. I don't know MK9 well enough to give decent comparisons, but I could give many examples from MvC where tech brings a character from bottom or mid to top. Look at what happened with Morrigan when ChrisG started playing her.

Not to say chars might not need buffs, but tech is a huge importance here! Players should feel encouraged to hit the lab with anyone on this list!

 

[Qwark28]

Understood.. However can you honestly say as the game stands now that the low tier cast will get any better with evolution and no help to make them viable? Will some crazy Bane tech make him super viable against Superman? Even with Bane getting the help he has so far- all evidence points to him still having very bad MU's and many more uphill battles. I am not saying put Bane and Harley and the Joker through the roof with buffs, making them BETTER than Supes or BA, but more tools and at least some formidable assistance to give those mainers something to work with.

Yes, so? Do you really want to buff a character enough to beat the best character in the game or would you rather want to make him a tad more competitive? What happens if Bane can go even with supes or even compete? What will lesser characters do? There comes a point where a character's design no longer permits you to balance them without fucking shit up. Doesn't help that there are only 2 MAYBE 3 Bane players who know what this character needs and how his metagame will look. Plus, noone knows how to really nulify superman's "zoning". Superman has no real zoning.

Most character forums right now are 90% inexperienced players crying about bad matchups and not finding tech and 10% good players trying to make something out of their characters. Until people start going deep into character-specific tech instead of general tech then we'll know who to buff or nerf.

NRS just won't get that.

 

[xWEBSx]

All I'll say to this is, don't underestimate what tech can do for a character. I don't know MK9 well enough to give decent comparisons, but I could give many examples from MvC where tech brings a character from bottom or mid to top. Look at what happened with Morrigan when ChrisG started playing her.

Not to say chars might not need buffs, but tech is a huge importance here! Players should feel encouraged to hit the lab with anyone on this list!

again understood and agreed.. However I feel the MvC comparison is a bit off seeing as his Morrigan needed Doom to back her to make that viable.. Here in the 1v1 scenario, you must bank in your character tech only.. It is just my belief that a small tweak here, a slight buff there only makes bottom tier viable against other in the same tier. It just irks me to no end to see 2 characters in the considered not viable status (Harley & Joker) to have two of the worst traits in the game...

 

[xWEBSx]

Yes, so? Do you really want to buff a character enough to beat the best character in the game or would you rather want to make him a tad more competitive? What happens if Bane can go even with supes or even compete? What will lesser characters do? There comes a point where a character's design no longer permits you to balance them without fucking shit up. Doesn't help that there are only 2 MAYBE 3 Bane players who know what this character needs and how his metagame will look. Plus, noone knows how to really nulify superman's "zoning". Superman has no real zoning.

Most character forums right now are 90% inexperienced players crying about bad matchups and not finding tech and 10% good players trying to make something out of their characters. Until people start going deep into character-specific tech instead of general tech then we'll know who to buff or nerf.

NRS just won't get that.

To answer your question.. tier lists occur out of improper balancing (through design or fault) ad thats not overall a bad thing- because no fighter is perfect and balanced- one can just hope to have as little tier brackets per game as possible (which means close balance) and work from there. 6-4 MU's should be aimed for as the worst possible across the board as far as balance goes, as the scales tip lower- 7-3, 8-2, etc.. It gets worse and worse. I understand that characters will always have a tough MU, but why is top tier, top tier? Because they have the least unfavorable match ups, and will break even or ahead in all MU's..But I digress.. I want the non-formidable, formidable.. And not on same level as Supes..

And as far as NRS goes.. that is my fear.. Thanks

 

[Killzone]

But once players start figuring a character out, they may become less viable over time. This is yet another reason this topic is focused on the current meta-game.

That's where I don't agree with you and I tried to make that clear in my prior post, but here is it in even more detail:

The current meta-game consists out of people dropping characters they might be interested in, but they're playing it safe and using characters which give them victories. CDjr is a great example, whose favorite hero is the Flash, but he thinks that Flash is not viable, so he goes with Supersafeman and does F23 Breath, F23 Breath, F23 Breath.
Current meta-game = picking easy-to-use-characters in order to place high at tournaments and make a name for yourself at this point of the game, where it' still very new, fresh and people are interested in it.
That's the reason we don't see a lot of variety, in my opinion.

Now to your point which I highlighted:
Could it be that Bane is a totally unviable character with which you can't make the TOP 8 of a major, no matter how good and superior you are as a player? That could very well be, but are we - at this point (the game is not even 2 months old) able to consider that a proven fact?
In my opinion we can't do that.
And what you're saying is that once people start figuring a character out more and more, they will become less viable. Obviously you mean characters and their weaknesses and that will happen over time. With time people will adapt to Black Adam and he will drop in the tier list, simply because he has some heavy disadvantages, which people don't punish as for now.
But at the same time people will be figuring out other characters. What makes you think that Harley Quinn won't be a future A+ tier character, once people figured her out? As for now no one did really invest time into her, because she seems to be harder to use than for example Killer Frost. Why would you use Harley Quinn, if you can use Killer Frost, who is more broken? There is no reason to do so, if you're a competetive player, who only cares about recognition and fame.
But does that mean that Harley Quinn is not viable and won't make it into the TOP 8 of a major any time soon? No, because there is no one who invested the time to figure her out.
(Bane and Lobo seem to be tricky ponies though)

 

[xWEBSx]

Killzone

Unfortunately your example of CD jr Flash and Supes is not overly uncommon in fighters.. However for whatever reason the top players seem to be sticking to these options more so than championing the underdog and finding out way out there tech with IGAU.. I don't know if this will change after EVO has passed and the pressure is off the table, or if top players will just lame it out and appear lazy (for whatever reason), and I believe that whatever reason is.. Because they can and what is going to stop them? A character like Supes can demolish a majority of the cast by just showing up.. It's kind of like, if you can't beat em.. Join em.. Or.. Stop me if you can, but I'm riding the gravy train til SOMEONE knocks me off.

 

[Spyridon]

Could it be that Bane is a totally unviable character with which you can't make the TOP 8 of a major, no matter how good and superior you are as a player? That could very well be, but are we - at this point (the game is not even 2 months old) able to consider that a proven fact?
In my opinion we can't do that.

I agree with you. But that's why it's focused on the current meta-game. Currently he's not viable at a major. But this isn't a list that's set it stone, it can change. And I actually hope it changes, that's kind of the intent of this list!

It don't have to be all opinion. Anyone here can practice with Bane and actually make it a proven fact (your words) that he is top 8 viable by making it that far in a tournament.

That's the only way to get proven facts out of this, and that's the beauty of this kind of list in comparison to a tier list.

And what you're saying is that once people start figuring a character out more and more, they will become less viable. Obviously you mean characters and their weaknesses and that will happen over time. With time people will adapt to Black Adam and he will drop in the tier list, simply because he has some heavy disadvantages, which people don't punish as for now.

I'm just saying that "may" happen due to the characters design. The opposite might happen as well. Your Harley example may be correct, it may not. But if anyone is able to bring Harley or Bane in to top tier, they will have successfully proven this list wrong and make it a proven fact that they don't belong here.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your point, that people won't be picking characters they don't think can win. But as they do in all games, this changes over time. Some top tier chars fall off. But the opposite is also true, (insert pro players name here) who loves Harley but don't think shes competitive, as they play her and get more confident with their skills with her, they may be ready to bring her in to tournament and show everyone else what's up. And this would be a huge advantage, since most of them wont know how to fight her!

Hell, look at what Grundy did this last week for a perfect example. A month or so ago he gave up on Grundy quickly on bad matches, but now he stuck with him and won!

 

[rev0lver]

So it seems you probably have the most experience with Lex of all the players who responded so far, I'd like to ask you, what would your opinion be on Lex? Does he belong on this list?

Definitely. I think Lex is a better character than most people in this community think, but there's no way hes top 8 level.

 

[jonnzz]

That's where I don't agree with you and I tried to make that clear in my prior post, but here is it in even more detail:

The current meta-game consists out of people dropping characters they might be interested in, but they're playing it safe and using characters which give them victories. CDjr is a great example, whose favorite hero is the Flash, but he thinks that Flash is not viable, so he goes with Supersafeman and does F23 Breath, F23 Breath, F23 Breath.
Current meta-game = picking easy-to-use-characters in order to place high at tournaments and make a name for yourself at this point of the game, where it' still very new, fresh and people are interested in it.
That's the reason we don't see a lot of variety, in my opinion.

Now to your point which I highlighted:
Could it be that Bane is a totally unviable character with which you can't make the TOP 8 of a major, no matter how good and superior you are as a player? That could very well be, but are we - at this point (the game is not even 2 months old) able to consider that a proven fact?
In my opinion we can't do that.
And what you're saying is that once people start figuring a character out more and more, they will become less viable. Obviously you mean characters and their weaknesses and that will happen over time. With time people will adapt to Black Adam and he will drop in the tier list, simply because he has some heavy disadvantages, which people don't punish as for now.
But at the same time people will be figuring out other characters. What makes you think that Harley Quinn won't be a future A+ tier character, once people figured her out? As for now no one did really invest time into her, because she seems to be harder to use than for example Killer Frost. Why would you use Harley Quinn, if you can use Killer Frost, who is more broken? There is no reason to do so, if you're a competetive player, who only cares about recognition and fame.
But does that mean that Harley Quinn is not viable and won't make it into the TOP 8 of a major any time soon? No, because there is no one who invested the time to figure her out.
(Bane and Lobo seem to be tricky ponies though)

I think showing good play with low/mid tier characters may well bring more fame and recognition than riding the superman bandwagon.

CDjr would probably do very very good with the Flash and he would probably get even more respect.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

I think catwoman for sure is unviable. she struggles too hard against zoners, even with her buff