Yes it still whiffs not as much as before but it still happens
Ugh this is the worst logic. Just because one person can play a variation well it doesn't mean that it's definitely the best variation. Korey clearly didn't know the matchup.
Why worst logic? I agree that it's the best. Which one do you think is the best then?
No. I'd rather go 112-(ex)dd4 for the guaranteed 50/50, which has the very likely potential of reload anyway on hit. Please refer to the "Living Demolition" thread.
This is definitely the preferable option.
I just explained in the post you just quoted why, did you not read it? And personally I think Special Forces is the best but it's really underrepresented and underexplored, but it doesn't matter because all her variations are solid.
So what if he won with Demo? He also won with Special Forces. King won TFC with Goro, does that mean Goro is better than Hish Qu Ten? Of course not. Korey did not know the matchup, he sat there and ate grenade after grenade without punishing (which Alucard actually did once or twice at least) and didn't even attempt jumping out of d3~ex drone. Demo's good but Scar didn't "break Quan Chi, Korey's lack of matchup knowledge is what cost him. Let's not be too oblivious to what actually happened in the match. I respect that you have a different opinion and you think Demo is better but I think if that judgement is based on the fact Scar used her in grand finals when he also used the other two variations throughout the tournament then you're not really backing it up with great evidence.
I asked "why worst logic" because unless the players changed their mind, I thought it was well known among those who main Sonya fully in all 3 variations that Demolition is potentially the best. It's not the same as saying Ancestral is Kung Jin's best variation, for example.
wow why so touchy? if its bothering you so much I'll rephrase,
That's a really vague thing to say though, that Demo is "potentially the best". Lol duh any of her variations could potentially be the best. What does Ancestral have to do with this? We're talking about Sonya. And that's different because Shaolin and Bojutsu are way better than Ancestral but all of Sonyas variations are good.
I don't mean to come across as "touchy" I was just pointing out that although Scar is great and he deserved to win there was a lack of matchup knowledge involved too
Dude, if you were to rate all of her variations in categories, Demolition would get the highest score. That's why Sonya players feel that it's "potentially the best". We're talking about Sonya, but if you tell someone that Ancestral is Kung Jin's best variation and Demolition is Sonya's best variation, the reaction would be very different. Demo being the best is old news. The way you meant "just because one person can play a variation well it doesn't mean that it's definitely the best variation" sort of came across as if Demo is bad. lol
That's arguable, you're just saying Demo is the best without actually explaining why and just insinuating that "everyone" "knows" it's the best. Special Forces is very underrepresented so I think it'd be hasty to just decide so definitely that Demo is the best. Again, Ancestral has nothing to do with this and your example isn't relevant to what we're talking about since Sonya has three good variations and Ancestral is easily not Kung Jin's best. I don't see where you're going with that example... I'm not saying Demo is bad at all, of course not, in fact I've said in my last few posts that all her variations are good lol. I mean I'm a Demo player myself
Demolition:That's arguable, you're just saying Demo is the best without actually explaining why and just insinuating that "everyone" "knows" it's the best. Special Forces is very underrepresented so I think it'd be hasty to just decide so definitely that Demo is the best. Again, Ancestral has nothing to do with this and your example isn't relevant to what we're talking about since Sonya has three good variations and Ancestral is easily not Kung Jin's best. I don't see where you're going with that example... I'm not saying Demo is bad at all, of course not, in fact I've said in my last few posts that all her variations are good lol. I mean I'm a Demo player myself
Why I think SF could be better:
- The nerf to B14 took away a relatively big part of Demo's game as she had a way of getting a guaranteed safe reload every time and now doesn't really. She has to sacrifice damage and/or positioning to get a safe reload now, but in SF it's pretty easy to get drone out since it has two thirds the startup of Demo's drone
- Resources aren't as scarce in Special Forces since the drone stays out indefinitely and you can use its attacks multiple times before you have to recall it whereas you only have three grenades in Demo that you need to reload manually
- It's easier to control space with the drone's BLK+2 (I think it's 2 anyway, the tracking electric one) in Special Forces than it is to control with Demo's grenades as you have free movement to follow the BLK+2 (which also tracks, meaning the opponent pretty much has to hold you advancing at them) and you're not using anything besides time by using BLK+2 whereas you're using a very important resource in Demo with the grenade
- If I'm right I'm pretty sure Special Forces does more damage on average than Demolition does too
Although Demo does have a few things better about it like how you have three grenades in Demo but only one drone in SF, your grenades aren't on a timer like the drone is and the grenades only disappear if you use them and grenades are faster than the drone is on average. I'm not saying SF is better, that's just what I think and we've still to see more of it. We're only 5 months in, there's still a lot to be found.
Dude you're not explaining why, you're just making blank statements that don't have any meaning. This isn't something that would convince me. Also are you actually using xray combos as a talking point for Demo being better? You realise that almost never happens in real matches right? And "better conversions"? What?! That's really really vague lol. See how I explained why I think SF is better instead of just saying "better drone, better damage, better space control"? Do that so I can see why you think what you think.Demolition:
- Highest damage out of three variations (she can still get 70% off Xray with three grenades in the corner)
- Better zoning (We all know Sonya has always been shit at this area, but in Demo she can get by)
- Better corner carry
- Better wakeup
- Better conversions
The beauty in her variations is that they all play very differently, so you can pick the best one for each MU, just like Scar does. Funny that you think SF might be the best, because it's definitely VERY good indeed, but I've seen people saying it's bottom 5 and needs buffs.
That's ALL that was being disagreed with at that point lol. The logic was EXTREMELY flawed, because I agree Korey didn't know the MU. That was EXTREMELY evident. DIFFERENT logic (as was later provided) MIGHT prove that Demolition is UNIVERSALLY her best variation. But all variations have strengths in specific MUs regardless.
Dude, if you really played Demo like you said, you would definitely see what I'm talking about without repeating "this is the worst logic", "this argument is flawed", "this is really vague". Do I really need to get into the nitty gritty of why Demo has the highest damage, for example? Like, I'm not saying that Demo has the highest damage just because of the Xray, because I shit you not, that scenario which the opponent gets hits with the Xray when she has three grenades isn't something that "never ever happens".
Right, that logic of "Demo is the best because Scar beat Korey" is flawed, but it's not like Dedlock said that for the first time ever just because of this. He's one of the most frequent posters and I highly doubt that he thinks that variation is the best just because of that. That sounded like a "confirmation", so to speak, especially coming from a character loyalist that has been playing her since day 1.@errormacro7 I don't think that @Youphemism was ever DEFINITIVELY saying that Demolition is NOT Sonya's best variation.
He was only ever saying that the logic of "One player did really well with a variation at a tournament", or even SEVERAL players did really well with a variation is flawed logic. In that regard, I completely agree. The right player might be able to take Goro's tools and apply them in a way that wins a tournament. Doesn't mean that Goro is suddenly amazing, just that people didn't have the MU knowledge to get around the tools/tech.
I don't think there is much point in you guys continuing the argument as you both have your views. I can personally say with confidence that I feel Covert Ops is her WORST variation, but after that I don't think that the other 2 have been explored enough but hopefully she's on the map again now thanks to Scar.
It will be interesting to see how things go in the future now that people know they HAVE TO learn the Demo Sonya matchup. Demo is the main Sonya variation I play and I think once people know the matchup, it loses a lot of strength. You can make people hesitant to press buttons, yes. It's a kickass anti-air, yes.
Demolition is love. Demolition is life. Demolition loses steam when players know the matchup. Scar was getting away with murder on some of those reloads lol. No complaints here, I'm glad she was successful.
You guys will definitely continue to differ on your points of BEST variation, but reading through the thread that's not even how the disagreement began. It was actually just @Youphemism saying that the LOGIC and REASONING previously mentioned about Demo being best just didn't make sense.
That's ALL that was being disagreed with at that point lol. The logic was EXTREMELY flawed, because I agree Korey didn't know the MU. That was EXTREMELY evident. DIFFERENT logic (as was later provided) MIGHT prove that Demolition is UNIVERSALLY her best variation. But all variations have strengths in specific MUs regardless.
I'll see myself out, I just like to check in to the Sonya section and contribute every now and then
Gotcha. I don't follow this forum too hard. Busy trying to get the most out of my empress lol. Makes more sense when you put it that way though. In that case, you guys carry on. I'll assume that Youphemism only follows as closely as I do though. I've never noticed Dedlock's name before, but that might be because he doesn't have an avatar. That's usually how I associate posters in my memory.