Opening Move

[Might Tested]

Because meter is potential gold to Cyber, he needs to get it at any opportunity he can. The best place to do this, obviously, is in the first hit. So like chess, an opening move is obviously very important...
Jump back instant-dive kick?
Jump forward instant-divekick?
NJP-divekick?
Parry?
B22, jump back kick, instant-shortdivekick?
Your thoughts on how you should go about to secure that first hit bonus?

 

[CYracks]

Opening move strategies are usually a waste of time to ponder unless its against a sparring partner or something. Most pro players just back-dash-block in the beginning of a match and then start zoning. Trying something ballsy in the beginning of a match is more risky then it is rewarding most of the time.

 

[Might Tested]

Sektor can Forward 2. Sonya can D4. Subby ice clones. Kabal almost always jumps back and iaGBs.
Against certain characters, and considering this is 1 bar of meter to be had, it might be slightly importante to ponder. If most pro's in theory, dash backwards, since it'd be ballsy to dash forwards considering how many characters have long reaches, then a short or medium bomb wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

This is 100% character dependent

 

[Robotic]

This is 100% character dependent

Goes without saying, but this. What's Quan gonna do in the beginning of a match that doesn't leave him eating Pain Enchiladitos?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Goes without saying, but this. What's Quan gonna do in the beginning of a match that doesn't leave him eating Pain Enchiladitos?

Most quans I've seen will do f1 2 1+2 because it beats all elite d4s as well as priority over most moves

To go in bigger detail of how character dependent this is Ill give examples

NW vs mileena. Mileena almost all the time will d4 at beginning and I'd you're NW the last thing in the world u wanna do here is shoulder first in this MU. NW should dash back block here to play it safe and set up his offense and by dashing back covers Mileenas options of d4, tele, sai, JIP pressure , dash 4 2, f3

A simple dash back avoid being victim to one of these

CSZ vs sektor. Best thing for sektor to do is b1, dash back crouch block or dash back flame
CSZ should respect from beginning flame and b1 and random ex tele

This list would go on forever lol

 

[Might Tested]

Well Pig, go on forever, how about for specificly bad matchups, like Kitana, Kabal, and Subby?

 

[Robotic]

Most quans I've seen will do f1 2 1+2 because it beats all elite d4s as well as priority over most moves

To go in bigger detail of how character dependent this is Ill give examples

NW vs mileena. Mileena almost all the time will d4 at beginning and I'd you're NW the last thing in the world u wanna do here is shoulder first in this MU. NW should dash back block here to play it safe and set up his offense and by dashing back covers Mileenas options of d4, tele, sai, JIP pressure , dash 4 2, f3

A simple dash back avoid being victim to one of these

CSZ vs sektor. Best thing for sektor to do is b1, dash back crouch block or dash back flame
CSZ should respect from beginning flame and b1 and random ex tele

This list would go on forever lol

Is it due to parry? How risky is it for Csz to parry as an opening move? Because if it isn't parry, F2 is the way to go for Cyber Satan.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Is it due to parry? How risky is it for Csz to parry as an opening move? Because if it isn't parry, F2 is the way to go for Cyber Satan.

Idk sektor very well but I was referring to his blast punch move which isnt parryable.

I might start w a parry .5% of the time lol

FTR sektor has tons of moves parry doesn't work. Chest blast, hand blast, tele and ex tele and his 2 hit low launcher

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Not only is this character dependent, I believe getting the first hit is also player dependent.

 

[Robotic]

Idk sektor very well but I was referring to his blast punch move which isnt parryable.

I might start w a parry .5% of the time lol

FTR sektor has tons of moves parry doesn't work. Chest blast, hand blast, tele and ex tele and his 2 hit low launcher

Cool. Watch out for F2. It's faster and could go into B1 for a total of 15%, or can be cancelled after the first hit to go into anything - I use this to open pretty often.

 

[Altaire]

Opening move strategies are usually a waste of time to ponder unless its against a sparring partner or something. Most pro players just back-dash-block in the beginning of a match and then start zoning. Trying something ballsy in the beginning of a match is more risky then it is rewarding most of the time.

Holy fucking shit, thank you.

I have never seen a truer post on this forum in all my life. I've said this a thousand times: There's a difference between "Hey, I'm playing my boy Ted, he always jumps in at the start of the round, I'll uppercut him" and taking a complete and total stab in the dark. Off the start of every match, back dash and block. If your opponent does anything, you will be at an advantage 100% of the time, period. If they jump in, they'll miss and you can retaliate. If they do an unsafe special, you can block and punish. If they whiff anything, jump back or do a NJP, you have frame advantage. There is never any reason NOT to do this, and all you really have to do is be ready to block low on reaction against any character with a low-hitting special.

The only, ONLY time you should even risk using a special off the start of the match is when you know there's absolutely no risk of being punished, which is absolutely matchup-specific. Protip: Pretty much every character in the top ten makes this impossible. Raiden and Kung Lao can teleport, Jax can EX dash punch, Kabal can IAF or EX dash, Cage can EX shadow kick, the list goes on. Anyone with armor can fuck you up for even attempting to do anything that isn't back dash + block off the start of the round.

Also, Sektor's F2 B1 is terrible, it's full combo punishable on block. His naked F2 is one of the best normals in the game. It's fast, it lunges forward, it hits mid, it's advantage on block and most importantly, it blows up low hitbox characters. Sektor absolutely NEEDS this to pressure his opponent, because his 1 and 2 strings can be ducked every time and B3 4 is unsafe. Sektor is one of my best characters, and one of the three I took to Canada Cup (and will be taking to Winter Brawl). From all my time playing him, I can guarantee you that any character in the game will just poke you out of every string if you aren't making expert use of D1, D3, D4 and F2.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Holy fucking shit, thank you.

I have never seen a truer post on this forum in all my life. I've said this a thousand times: There's a difference between "Hey, I'm playing my boy Ted, he always jumps in at the start of the round, I'll uppercut him" and taking a complete and total stab in the dark. Off the start of every match, back dash and block. If your opponent does anything, you will be at an advantage 100% of the time, period. If they jump in, they'll miss and you can retaliate. If they do an unsafe special, you can block and punish. If they whiff anything, jump back or do a NJP, you have frame advantage. There is never any reason NOT to do this, and all you really have to do is be ready to block low on reaction against any character with a low-hitting special.

The only, ONLY time you should even risk using a special off the start of the match is when you know there's absolutely no risk of being punished, which is absolutely matchup-specific. Protip: Pretty much every character in the top ten makes this impossible. Raiden and Kung Lao can teleport, Jax can EX dash punch, Kabal can IAF or EX dash, Cage can EX shadow kick, the list goes on. Anyone with armor can fuck you up for even attempting to do anything that isn't back dash + block off the start of the round.

Also, Sektor's F2 B1 is terrible, it's full combo punishable on block. His naked F2 is one of the best normals in the game. It's fast, it lunges forward, it hits mid, it's advantage on block and most importantly, it blows up low hitbox characters. Sektor absolutely NEEDS this to pressure his opponent, because his 1 and 2 strings can be ducked every time and B3 4 is unsafe. Sektor is one of my best characters, and one of the three I took to Canada Cup (and will be taking to Winter Brawl). From all my time playing him, I can guarantee you that any character in the game will just poke you out of every string if you aren't making expert use of D1, D3, D4 and F2.

Dash back and blocking isnt 100% safe, like pig said its matchup specific. Dashing back can get caught by things like superman and shadow kick if its from the very beginning of the fight.

 

[NkdSingularity]

Against scorpion; nj, if they go for the jip you get the juggle. Scorps often like to dash back and throw a spear, so if they move back then teleport and punish the whiffed spear, if you see them tele then you can divekick on reaction (auto-correct ftw).

 

[NYCj360]

opening moves can make or break pressure. As pig said its character specific but it is a valid strategy as first hit gets you a meter. There are beginning strategies for every character so why not discuss this?

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[GuamoKun]

opening moves can make or break pressure. As pig said its character specific but it is a valid strategy as first hit gets you a meter. There are beginning strategies for every character so why not discuss this?

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Depending on the character, I usually go for b22xxslide.

VERY risky, but it works for the most part.

I tried it against pig on some matches but he anticipated that I would make the first move and punished. Not only do you have to think of the match-up, but also on the style the character is played as, and the player itself. If they do not know of CSZ's shenanigans then you can for the most part take some rsisks but against seasoned players, you gotta be more careful.

 

[Altaire]

Depending on the character, I usually go for b22xxslide.

VERY risky, but it works for the most part.

I tried it against pig on some matches but he anticipated that I would make the first move and punished. Not only do you have to think of the match-up, but also on the style the character is played as, and the player itself. If they do not know of CSZ's shenanigans then you can for the most part take some rsisks but against seasoned players, you gotta be more careful.

This is about the worst suggestion you could possibly make B2 2 slide does not combo. It's not a mixup, it's not a proper link, and the only reason it works is that no one knows that you can't just fuzzy guard it to beat it 100% of the time. There's no natural delay after B2 2; it immediately links into the slide, and so there's no reason not to just fuzzy it. You can visibly confirm when the string has ended, let go of crouch and be at no disadvantage whatsoever, especially since B2 2 jails you standing (meaning you don't ever have to enter a crouch block state and give your opponent frame advantage). B2 2 is a decent way to start the round if you must make any move at all. Slide is a risky but potentially viable way to start the round. B2 2 slide is never, ever good under any circumstances whatsoever. The only use it has in the entire game is determining if your opponent has no fucking clue how to deal with Cyber Sub. It's no better than doing random slides in place of high/mid attacks in Sub Zero's strings.

...And before anyone goes there, no, F2 2 1 slide is not a mixup.

 

[GuamoKun]

This is about the worst suggestion you could possibly make B2 2 slide does not combo. It's not a mixup, it's not a proper link, and the only reason it works is that no one knows that you can't just fuzzy guard it to beat it 100% of the time. There's no natural delay after B2 2; it immediately links into the slide, and so there's no reason not to just fuzzy it. You can visibly confirm when the string has ended, let go of crouch and be at no disadvantage whatsoever, especially since B2 2 jails you standing (meaning you don't ever have to enter a crouch block state and give your opponent frame advantage). B2 2 is a decent way to start the round if you must make any move at all. Slide is a risky but potentially viable way to start the round. B2 2 slide is never, ever good under any circumstances whatsoever. The only use it has in the entire game is determining if your opponent has no fucking clue how to deal with Cyber Sub. It's no better than doing random slides in place of high/mid attacks in Sub Zero's strings.

...And before anyone goes there, no, F2 2 1 slide is not a mixup.

Thats what I meant. I got rid of my f221 slide thing a while back. I only do stuff like that to troll online warriors and stuff.

I'll say it now and again, some things work only because people have no clue about CSZ, and I try to capitalize on that. Once they start to wise up against that risky stuff then you start bringing in the heavy artillery. I don't know about you guys but when I fight people and that happens they start to make more mistakes.

Playing some CSZ mirror sessions with Pig made me realize where my game needs work so I'm starting to getaway from my scrub tactics.

 

[NYCj360]

Usually i like to try and sneak in a d3 for the first attack. Once i have that meter i have advantage. Sometimes i even whiff a short dive kick and grab depending on the players style of play. And altaire is correct i wouldn't recommend b22 slide if your playing someone who has at least some csz knowledge but you do acknowledge that guamo.

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[A F0xy Grampa]

This is about the worst suggestion you could possibly make B2 2 slide does not combo. It's not a mixup, it's not a proper link, and the only reason it works is that no one knows that you can't just fuzzy guard it to beat it 100% of the time. There's no natural delay after B2 2; it immediately links into the slide, and so there's no reason not to just fuzzy it. You can visibly confirm when the string has ended, let go of crouch and be at no disadvantage whatsoever, especially since B2 2 jails you standing (meaning you don't ever have to enter a crouch block state and give your opponent frame advantage). B2 2 is a decent way to start the round if you must make any move at all. Slide is a risky but potentially viable way to start the round. B2 2 slide is never, ever good under any circumstances whatsoever. The only use it has in the entire game is determining if your opponent has no fucking clue how to deal with Cyber Sub. It's no better than doing random slides in place of high/mid attacks in Sub Zero's strings.

...And before anyone goes there, no, F2 2 1 slide is not a mixup.

B22 slide is clearly a part of a mixup, like you said it has no delay afterwards so that means you can do something other than a slide, therefore mixing it up.

 

[Altaire]

B22 slide is clearly a part of a mixup, like you said it has no delay afterwards so that means you can do something other than a slide, therefore mixing it up.

...Uh, the point is that because there is no delay, you can beat the slide option 100%. If you wait until the string finishes, there is a delay. If you special cancel B2 2 into slide or any other special (which doesn't combo), there is no delay whatsoever, he will cancel the second hit animation early and the slide will come out. This is seriously no different than fuzzying Sub Zero's quote-unquote "mixups" involving random slides in strings that have no overheads: It's pure muscle memory. It's so easily negated there isn't even any conscious thought required.

Throwing a random slide out after any blockstring finishes is always an option. Unfortunately, it's not a good one. I will do this only once every blue moon, and only ever off 3 3 2 on block. In any other case, there are almost always better and safer options.

Oh, and since I missed your last post, properly dashing backward and blocking beats the superman or shadow kick. At best, it'll take around 3 frames to actually input the 8 frame attack. It'll also take around 3 frames to actually travel to your opponent after the startup. That gives your opponent anywhere from, say, 14 to 18 frames to dash back and cancel it with block. That's all the time in the world. Dash blocking isn't exactly a complicated mechanic.

If dash + block can beat Ermac's force push from anywhere within its active range, it can sure as hell beat Cage's shadow kick or Raiden's superman. Even if it couldn't, either option is going to give your opponent the first hit AND a full combo punish if you guess wrong. I'd say that's one hell of a way to start off the set.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Its just thing I still dont see players do, punishing movements, backdashes are punishable, forward dashes are punishable and so are jumps, you just have to clock onto your opponents movements and find the right move to beat it with. Not saying that a shadow kick is the answer, but I sure as hell have punished back dashes with F32.

This only comes into effect against an opponent who understands how important spacing is.

 

[NYCj360]

I go for punishing back dashes with ex freeze sometimes. Doesn't dash blocking close off the dash window foxy?

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[Pig Of The Hut]

yea b2 2 slide is bad bad bad unless ending a combo or off a Air to Air

Man how kick ass would it be if you could cancel EN Bomb off of U4?

 

[Might Tested]

If you're playing Kitana/Kabal, and you dash block backwards...wouldn't that be counter-productive to positioning?
What would other options be for these harder matchups?