KTF Ep. 5 (Screwjob) - Podcast Ft. LotF, King Hippo, Coolwhip, Saucy & Home Lee

[Protagonist_1]

It depends. It's not just about the faster attack, but range, hitbox, timing, etc...matter. It's not as easy to determine as grounded attacks, where you simply look at frame data. Also, part of it is determined by who initiates the jump (for example, even though I brought up Lex's J3, it won't beat J2 if Batman jumps first since Lex's jump is pretty slow). Deathstroke's J3 outranges Batman's J2, so from certain distances, it will beat it. That's kinda why I said there's no such thing as "Move A ALWAYS beats Move B" in air to air, not in most situations anyway.

One thing you're definitely right about, Batman's J2 is good at beating out Deathstroke's jump back 3 in many situations.

I honestly can't answer your question for sure about DS' J3 vs Batman's J2 as an absolute, so you might be right, I need to test this further. But yeah, DS' J1 beats Batman's J2.

EDIT: Nah, you're right lol. Did some quick testing. In most cases, J2 will beat DS' J3. I apologize @HomeLee1121 @Vagrant

Good topic. Most of the time (but not all the time) instant-air light attacks are faster and beat out medium and heavy attacks (and medium attacks beat out heavies...usually). Although, one of the disadvantages for going for an air-to-air is if your opponent doesn't jump then it's very easy for your opponent to anti-air on the way down. Some characters can even use normals (like standing 1) to anti-air early jump attacks.

Plus, as you mentioned before, the hitbox is a huge factor. For example, weapon attacks do not have a hurtbox, only a hitbox. This means they have priority over limbs, hence why Deathstroke's j3 and other characters with weapons with jump in attacks are difficult to anti-air.

You can also say the same about anti-airs as well involving weapons. This is why batman's j2 gets outprioritized(beat out) by Aquaman's d2, due the hitbox of the trident being a weapon and having priority over limbs.

Thinking about it now, how you anti-air in a match is entirely match-up specific, unlike mk9. Different jump in attacks must be anti-aired at different ranges or challenged with air-to-airs to beat them out due to the various jump-arcs and hitboxes of jump in attacks. I actually want to make a thread dedicated to this, but didn't have the time. Although it's probably common knowledge not everyone knows this unfortunately.

 

[coolwhip]

Saying a j2 is not as good because it loses to a j1 is a special blowup in and of itself.

The problem is you guys are taking it as downplaying, while ignoring the actual point I was trying to make, which is that in some cases it's better to use Batman's j1, which many Batman players aren't doing. That's all there is to it.

Also, keep in mind, I'm saying Batman's J2 is not as good in the air-to-air game compared to how good it is as a jump in. So it's basically just relative.

 

[ForeverKing]

no....fucking....chance. King would have us believe that Batman isn't top 10. Your write up explained nothing that makes Batman lose. Everybody gets killed on knockdown. Flash shouldn't be getting in often when you have bats, batarangs, and b23. This is pure laziness.

He isn't top 10. Dartharma agrees. I would say it must be accurate. He doesn't even have a single 7-3 matchup, he dominates 0 characters. He only has eight or less 6-4 matchups. Probably four or five 4-6 matchups and one 3-7

I would put him around 11-13 on the tier list.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Dude, how many good Flash players have you seen that can't get in due to batarangs and B23? B23 is a bill in this match-up. There, I said it. I mean, Batman's zoning is good in this match-up, but it's not enough to compensate for what Flash can do. How does Flash killing Batman on knockdown not a bigger deal than anything Batman can do? That doesn't apply to all characters. Many other characters can actually wake-up. More than that, Flash's D2 beating Batman's J2 is huge. I mean you're basically negating one of Batman's best tools. If a Flash player is respecting Batman's jump ins too much, he isn't too experienced in the match-up. At worst, Flash's D2 will trade and you can convert.

you have a 50/50 chance of getting away when flash knocks you down. just make a guess like everyone else.

 

[HomeLee1121]

you have a 50/50 chance of getting away when flash knocks you down. just make a guess like everyone else.

Except other characters don't get punished if they decide to wake up and it hits him

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Except other characters don't get punished if they decide to wake up and it hits him

thats why I posted what you quoted...grrr.

 

[HomeLee1121]

thats why I posted what you quoted...grrr.

-10 points

 

[coolwhip]

you have a 50/50 chance of getting away when flash knocks you down. just make a guess like everyone else.

Most other characters can also make Flash guess whether they're going to wake-up or not. I don't have that option, and if I do, he doesn't give a shit about it. In fact, he almost wants me to.

 

[Hades]

Does parry actually work as a wake up? Because that would screw it up for flash a bit wouldn't it. Wasn't worrying about wake up parry a big deal for max at KIT in the bane match up? Why is flash so different?

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

-10 points

Most other characters can also make Flash guess whether they're going to wake-up or not. I don't have that option, and if I do, he doesn't give a shit about it. In fact, he almost wants me to.

then don't wakeup...

-10 for both of you

 

[IMakeItL00kC00L]

@coolwhip flash is a great tv show you need to apologize immediately
Edit: we need apologies for poeople saying gotham sucks.

It's 2014 you can't have an opinion it's time to regulate

 

[HomeLee1121]

then don't wakeup...

-10 for both of you

Omg fly..........just wait till casuals.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Even though I don't think I've read it, I'll co-sign that it probably IS awesome. I was giddy from the moment I saw that you quoted. You are the hero this thread deserves and needs.

-3 points

 

[Captain Oxygen]

yeah lobo's not very good he has like 3 or 4 3-7's
he also doesn't body any DC character in this game

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

yeah lobo's not very good he has like 3 or 4 3-7's
he also doesn't body any DC character in this game

the fact that he beats aquaman makes up for that fact

NW is the same way though

 

[Captain Oxygen]

the fact that he beats aquaman makes up for that fact

NW is the same way though

dude i never get any aquaman in my tournament paths and it makes me sad...
lobo gets bodied by a character like grundy dont even

 

[haketh]

then don't wakeup...

-10 for both of you

Not being able to wake up is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE facotr, against most other characters Flash does have to worry about WUs & it's a factor on how he's going to go in & mix them up, wiht Batman it's never a factor because if Bats does WU he's punished on hit. It's like how in older KOFs characters with 1 Frame Command Grabs could abuse Kula on WU due to her DP being unsafe on hit to them, it allows you a whole room of leeway on offense.

 

[cR Biohazard]

I passed out shortly after our MM, but I know a few of the MM results

Gross def Sidthehaze in the runback of losers finals of their pool 5-4 Green lantern v Flash

I def Gross in 4 consecutive MM's Ares v Green Lantern
I was blackout drunk so the results may be fuzzy, but I believe they were 3-1. 3-0, 3-1, 3-2? something like that.

Proof -

I think Bio may have MM'd him, the room was alive for like another 3-4 hours after I passed out.

I money matched King and lost 5-1 against his batman, I beat Ronald Rogan's Shazam 5-0 and Cossner's Green Arrow 5-2 all were relatively small MM's but I only had twenties in my wallet for King Gross didn't want to money match me

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

Once we whiff that...its a torpedo into a full combo.

Can we stop using "if I whiff a move I get punished" as a reason for a bad MU please?

the actual point I was trying to make, which is that in some cases it's better to use Batman's j1, which many Batman players aren't doing.

So it is good to use different jump attacks in different situations, got it.

Edit. Man I am really enjoying blowing up batman (down)players today

 

[HomeLee1121]

Can we stop using "if I whiff a move I get punished" as a reason for a bad MU please?



So it is good to use different jump attacks in different situations, got it.

Edit. Man I am really enjoying blowing up batman (down)players today

but people keep listing as if its like the almighty answer to flash......or maybe i just suck......probably both

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

Now to be fair to Coolwhip.

I agree in what you are trying to say. Batman's j2 is not so overpowered that you can just use it at all times in all air to air situations.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I money matched King and lost 5-1 against his batman, I beat Ronald Rogan's Shazam 5-0 and Cossner's Green Arrow 5-2 all were relatively small MM's but I only had twenties in my wallet for King Gross didn't want to money match me

I too lost 5-1 to the bat lol

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Can we stop using "if I whiff a move I get punished" as a reason for a bad MU please?



So it is good to use different jump attacks in different situations, got it.

Edit. Man I am really enjoying blowing up batman (down)players today

your regulation is on point lately...I approve

 

[rev0lver]

lol @ me being 2nd in this poll right now. i literally beat 2 people and got 13th.

i did 200% @RM_Biohazard 's nightwing though so hold that bio

 

[Crimson Panther]

Just gonna express some opinions.

Gotham is s bill. Got bored of it mid way through the season. Flash and Arrow are the two best shows on television right now.

Rush is the best band to ever exist and Beatles and Rolling Stones are the most overrated bands to ever exist.

@AK L0rdoftheFLY I have to ask everytime I discover a fellow Rush fan. What's your favorite album and if you can't decide what's your top 3?

Great episode guys. Look forward to next week's.

BTW voted for @RM GamerBlake partly because I'm biased. Other part; that last match was the only one that had me yelling at my phone as I watched it. But everybody I saw had a great showing.