Where Do Raven and Lobo Belong?

[juicepouch]

Just now in Sonicboombrad's thread about fighting doomsday, I came across @pumpkincream, with whom I had a a disagreement regarding the placements of Lobo and Raven in relation to the rest of the cast. I contend that they're both in the running for possibly being top 10, whereas cream says that they are not as good. What is the current ruling from the TYM court of public appeals?

 

[pumpkincream]

i don't think raven or lobo are top 10 because of these guys:

mmh
aquaman
zod
ww
batgirl
flash
batman
bane
superman
black adam

 

[Spinky]

Both are middish imo.

 

[juicepouch]

I think they have all the tools to be there, maybe I'm missing something. I mean, Raven doesn't have wakeups but outside of that, what is she missing? As for Lobo, outside of slow specials I'm not sure what he's missing either. According to Ducky's Mu chart Raven does well against most of the commonly used characters/top tiers, and Lobo according to cap oxygen+fill pops has even matchups with nearly the entire cast. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think these characters have a real chance at occupying the bottom end of the top 10

 

[Fromundaman]

Personally, I think that as good as Raven is, she and Zod are both going to go down the tier list due to their lack of good wakeups. There is no higher reward for getting in on a character than to be able to safely bully them on knockdown.

Lobo I'm unsure of. I need to see more of him to have an opinion.

 

[juicepouch]

Personally, I think that as good as Raven is, she and Zod are both going to go down the tier list due to their lack of good wakeups. There is no higher reward for getting in on a character than to be able to safely bully them on knockdown.

Lobo I'm unsure of. I need to see more of him to have an opinion.

That's what I was thinking in terms of Raven weaknesses. If that's the case, shouldn't other characters without good wakeups also fall down the list as well? Batman and aquaman, for instance perhaps?

 

[pumpkincream]

raven has horrid wake ups, bad mix ups and no real good way of opening people up. she sucks at trying to make up a life lead. she's the weakest interactable class.

lobo is very unsafe up close sans meter. lobo has a hard time building meter. he has no full screen presence and always has to be in a sweet spot to optimize his tools. needs meter to wake up effectively. needs meter to get his damage going. in short he's very meter reliant.

 

[Fromundaman]

That's what I was thinking in terms of Raven weaknesses. If that's the case, shouldn't other characters without good wakeups also fall down the list as well? Batman and aquaman, for instance perhaps?

I've mentioned this before as well (Although Batman's slide, as bad as it is, is fully invincible and can therefore force you to respect it and/or get out of bad situations) but get blown up every time I mention AM might not be as good as we think he is. I know Joker molests him if he ever touches the ground in a HKD.
That said, AM does have trait, which can allow him to get up safely vs multi-hitting moves that could blow up his wakeups. However, in order to abuse that, he needs to not use his trait before getting knocked down, so it's a trade-off.

I do think as the game progresses though that characters with bad/not fully invincible wakeups are going to start dropping on the tier list.

 

[Espio]

At the beach working on those tans ;____;.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Ravens footsie are ass. And that's why she can't be top 10

 

[pumpkincream]

Ravens footsie are ass. And that's why she can't be top 10

that too. i wanted to say that but i really didn't feel like getting attacked by the "but soul crush and fast walk speed!" groupies.

good thing you posted it

 

[juicepouch]

Ravens footsie are ass. And that's why she can't be top 10

Are they really that awful?

 

[Cossner]

Another day, another thread.

 

[juicepouch]

Another day, another thread.

is there something so wrong with this discussion?

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Are they really that awful?

Yes. Her d1 has almost no range, and everything other than her d1, stand 1, & d2 is 13 frames or slower with shit dick range. On top of that her zoning is just alright, her wake ups are trash, and @pumpkincream she has mix ups, they're just kinda meh. But they can still open people up.

Oh and batmans slide is not fully invincible.

 

[GGA Wafflez]

where is the "garbage" option

 

[juicepouch]

where is the "garbage" option

Fair point. @mods, can I get a garbage option added?

 

[Captain Oxygen]

lo bo beats evryone 10-0 free
ggs unplug the system throw the stick win evo

 

[Sultan]

I think they have all the tools to be there, maybe I'm missing something. I mean, Raven doesn't have wakeups but outside of that, what is she missing? As for Lobo, outside of slow specials I'm not sure what he's missing either. According to Ducky's Mu chart Raven does well against most of the commonly used characters/top tiers, and Lobo according to cap oxygen+fill pops has even matchups with nearly the entire cast. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think these characters have a real chance at occupying the bottom end of the top 10

It's not about how good they are, it's about how good everyone else is in comparison.

Imo (and in most peoples opinion), the following characters are certainly top 10: MMH, Aquaman, Flash, Bane, Zod, Batgirl, Batman, Wonder Woman

That's 8 right there, so the last 2 spots are up for grabs with the rest of the cast, and in order for Lobo or Raven (or Doomsday or Lex even) to compete for "top 10," they need to be better than these contenders for the #9 & 10 slots: Superman, Black Adam, Sinestro, Killer Frost, Zatanna, Deathstroke, Green Lantern.

The way I see it though, top 10 is a bill. You're right to think Lobo and Raven are strong characters, because they are. And so is over half the cast. Everyone I mentioned above (that's 19 characters) is strong. That's a testament to how well balanced Injustice is. If people want to concern themselves with who's in the "top whatever" I think it only makes sense to refocus that discussion to the top 15/20 - not being top 10 doesn't mean your character sucks in this game.

 

[Espio]

Fair point. @mods, can I get a garbage option added?

I added it because why not?

 

[Ratchet-Fabulous]

Another day, another thread.

 

[TheBoyBlunder]

Another day, another thread.

 

[Sultan]

I've mentioned this before as well (Although Batman's slide, as bad as it is, is fully invincible and can therefore force you to respect it and/or get out of bad situations) but get blown up every time I mention AM might not be as good as we think he is. I know Joker molests him if he ever touches the ground in a HKD.
That said, AM does have trait, which can allow him to get up safely vs multi-hitting moves that could blow up his wakeups. However, in order to abuse that, he needs to not use his trait before getting knocked down, so it's a trade-off.

I do think as the game progresses though that characters with bad/not fully invincible wakeups are going to start dropping on the tier list.

Are you sure about that? Because as bad as some wake-ups are, there are multiple wake-up timings (at least 3), meaning a lot of anti-wake-up tech that people have been talking about doesn't work when the opponent delays their wake-ups and alter their invulnerable frames.

I think as players evolve with characters like Zod or Aquaman, they'll learn how to use delayed wake-ups to blow up popular anti-wake-up tech.

Unless someone knows of any anti-wake-up tech that's a catch all to beat all wake-up timings?

 

[Fromundaman]

Oh and batmans slide is not fully invincible.

It's not? I mean I know it becomes vulnerable a bit after it's started moving (But at that point it should have already gotten him out of danger or been blocked), but is there a gap in the invincibility before then?

EDIT:

Are you sure about that? Because as bad as some wake-ups are, there are multiple wake-up timings (at least 3), meaning a lot of anti-wake-up tech that people have been talking about doesn't work when the opponent delays their wake-ups and alter their invulnerable frames.

I think as players evolve with characters like Zod or Aquaman, they'll learn how to use delayed wake-ups to blow up popular anti-wake-up tech.

Unless someone knows of any anti-wake-up tech that's a catch all to beat all wake-up timings?

While you're right, some multi-hitting moves last long enough to beat out multiple wakeup timings. I believe CW's kicks for example can. I know Joker's 21 can (Although in all reality, doing teeth then D2>flower/BF3 will beat all wakeup timings while also being ridiculously hard to block). Stuff like mines and orbs can beat wakeups that aren't frame 1 invincible regardless of when you do them.

Delaying wakeups will help against some characters, but not against others.

 

[Cossner]

is there something so wrong with this discussion?

Yes. All these tier placement threads are poopy that serve no purpose but to downplay/upplay, contributing with 0 knowledge about the game.